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Author Topic: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"  (Read 68345 times)

methylatedspirit

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1275 on: November 27, 2020, 09:35:04 pm »

You know, one of the few places Intel wins over AMD's Ryzen 5000 series is DF, and even then, it's only definitive in longer worldgens, and it wins by a tiny margin.


Spoiler: Meanwhile... (click to show/hide)

I smell a potential sponsorship. /s
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feelotraveller

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1276 on: November 28, 2020, 03:44:14 am »

The remarkable one for me on that list is the AMD Ryzen 5 5600x, performs pretty well, pretty cheap, and low enough wattage that it can be run hard without generating too much heat.
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methylatedspirit

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1277 on: December 02, 2020, 12:42:13 am »

You know, "dude" is gender-neutral, may as well make "bro" gender-neutral, "guy" gender-neutral, "man" gender-neutral... fuck it, everything's gender-neutral now in my mind. Can't get misgendered if you just redefine all the terms to be gender-neutral. The only thing I want to enforce is they/them pronouns, and even then... giving a shit isn't quite in my nature.
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Kagus

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1278 on: December 02, 2020, 05:27:48 am »

I recently had someone (of the feminine variety) claim that "man" was in and of itself a derogatory term in modern parlance, where any mention of "man" or "men" by a woman has an intrinsically negative leaning to it, whereas the likable examples of the gender are referred to by other terms such as "guy".


This was in response to my stating that I felt somewhat uncomfortable when listening to her talk about how men are trash/disgusting/awful. She clarified by stating the above, and that since I'm not a horrible person I am in fact not a man, but rather a good guy.

scriver

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1279 on: December 02, 2020, 07:03:56 am »

I'm not sure if you've heard this before meth but "man" was originally actually a gender neutral term, just meaning "human".  Back then you'd add genders on to the man, were-man (male-human) and wyf-man (female-human) when you needed to. Were can still be found in for example werewolf and wyf in the form of wife.

Man changed to just meaning male over time, in my mind likely because of the influence of Latin-brand sexism, linguistic and cultural.

That's the reason why, say, "mankind% is still synonymous to "all humankind", though, and not just "male-kind". It's one of the places where the original gender neutral usage has survived.
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methylatedspirit

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1280 on: December 09, 2020, 07:27:08 am »

If I were to split hairs a little, the way I implemented being agender is by writing "NULL" to the gender identity fields. That technically would qualify as "nullgender", if such a thing exists. Means nothing to me, since, like a poorly-written program, my brain thinks null = 0 by default, and it accomplishes the "I refuse to give a shit about my gender, so it is (the conjoined concept of nonexistent-zero)" thing that I wanted to pull off just as well.
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McTraveller

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1281 on: December 09, 2020, 08:29:15 am »

I'm going to be ... well hopefully not misconstrued as being too insensitive or something. This is all personal opinion and my observation.

Part of the problem with gender terms is somewhere the line between sex, gender, and sexuality has been lost in some of modern culture.  'Male' and 'female' are sexes (genetic/physical).  'Masculine' and 'feminine' are genders (cultural/behavioral/preference).  You can be a feminine male who is attracted to women.  You can be a masculine female attracted to males and females.  You can be a feminine female who isn't particularly attracted to anyone.  You can be a masculine male who is attracted to masculine females, but not feminine females.

My "aged" viewpoint is that these words were enough, and I'm confused as to why we had to invent new ones that a large part of the population doesn't know.  This gets into where social conflict arises:

If you present yourself in appearance and behavior in line with the cultural expectations of, say, a masculine male and someone for the first time refers to you as 'he', you can't get bent out of shape.  I'd also say expectations that people are going to be able to overcome years of neural training to remember not only your name but new pronoun is not very realistic (that is, most people have a hard enough time remembering someone's name after a brief meeting, now you have to remember name+pronoun pairs? It's extra mental resources that most humans just don't have).  So for this case, I'm all for the concept of more neutral pronouns.  But what I'm not in support of is people being able to present as one stereotype but demand that people refer to them as belonging to another group - because this is basically setting people up for failure.  If you identify as an Apple fan but carry nothing around but Windows and Android gear, how would anyone ever know?

Also incidentally I don't think it's possible to have "no" cultural gender.  Society has basically put all types of human behavior on the masculine/feminine scale.  So you can be somewhere in the middle on that scale, or you can have a mix of traits that span the whole scale, but I don't think that makes you without gender - it just makes you not strongly masculine or feminine.  Just as in those personality tests for being extroverts or introverts - you may not be introverted or extroverted, but you still have a personality.  So I think you do still have a gender - it just doesn't fit in the nice pulldown categories.  It's not "null" - it's "none of the above."
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Rolan7

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1282 on: December 09, 2020, 11:05:57 am »

Sounds agender, like me.  Well, I think it's like me - when I dream I'm often genderfluid, and when I have to interact with people I often "put on" a gender, but it feels like... heh, this is a tired analogy people use, but it holds up:  It feels like wearing an irritating, ill-fitting mask.

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McTraveller

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1283 on: December 09, 2020, 12:44:48 pm »

So honest question - what does "gender fluid" mean to you? Does it mean you take on the role/aspect of any "gender" and switch between them easily?  Does this mean switching behavior, wardrobe/appearance, speech patterns?  I guess I'm asking - how does it manifest?  What do you associate with being on one end of the feminine vs masculine scale versus the other?

I mean I consider myself to be a 'man', and I'm physically male, and I am attracted sexually to physical females.  If I'm honest though I can't tell you exactly what makes that different from being a 'woman' aside from fundamental physical characteristics and cultural norms.  Maybe what I'm asking is - can you even talk about 'gender' outside the context of a larger culture in the first place?
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Rolan7

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1284 on: December 09, 2020, 01:35:39 pm »

So honest question - what does "gender fluid" mean to you? Does it mean you take on the role/aspect of any "gender" and switch between them easily?  Does this mean switching behavior, wardrobe/appearance, speech patterns?
That seems like a decent description of gender fluidity, yeah.  I'm not genderfluid because it's definitely not easy for me, it's actually pretty stressful.  It's hard to describe - it's not as simple as being misgendered in a conversation and immediately feeling bad.  It comes from spending a pleasant day with my dad, then wanting to... never see anyone again for a few days.  Because I'm not right.  A deep exhaustion, irritation, and general depression.

That's the cost of the mask.

Dreams are different because in dreams I'm different people, so that's fine.  It's actually very pleasant and recharging!  Sometimes I'm a guy, sometimes I'm a gal, often I'm neither and it's all fine because I'm not me.

Edit:  Agh, see, maybe that means I *am* genderfluid but I'm just held back by this wrong body.  I honestly don't know.  I'm just thankful that I don't have to wear gender everywhere.  And I don't know exactly what that means - mostly it just means people willing to acknowledge that I'm not a guy.  It's not like my actual behavior changes much, but I'm able to... relax, and not worry about certain expectations :)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 02:08:15 pm by Rolan7 »
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methylatedspirit

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1285 on: December 09, 2020, 06:19:55 pm »

If you present yourself in appearance and behavior in line with the cultural expectations of, say, a masculine male and someone for the first time refers to you as 'he', you can't get bent out of shape.  I'd also say expectations that people are going to be able to overcome years of neural training to remember not only your name but new pronoun is not very realistic (that is, most people have a hard enough time remembering someone's name after a brief meeting, now you have to remember name+pronoun pairs? It's extra mental resources that most humans just don't have).  So for this case, I'm all for the concept of more neutral pronouns.  But what I'm not in support of is people being able to present as one stereotype but demand that people refer to them as belonging to another group - because this is basically setting people up for failure.  If you identify as an Apple fan but carry nothing around but Windows and Android gear, how would anyone ever know?

I mean, it's sorta one of those instances where it's important to remember gender identity is something you give to yourself. It's your identity, not anyone else's. Me, I don't care if you call me a boy if you saw me out in public and I didn't introduce myself to you. If that's who you think I am, then I guess... that's what I look like? I don't really care. To me, I'm happy enough that I can call myself agender, and no-one can take that away from me. I'd prefer they/them, of course, but I don't really expect that of people, as a general rule. People are often disappointing and unreliable, and I see no reason why they won't be as such when dealing with pronouns.

I think Rolan once said that most nonbinary people don't care that much about pronouns, so I don't think I'm unique in holding such an opinion. It's hard to quantify what proportion of nonbinary people flip their shit at being referred to with gendered pronouns by strangers (it's another thing if it was friends or family), but I don't imagine it to be particularly large. I can't imagine that the people who do get offended are particularly pleasant to deal with. Even if it was people you trust... I don't believe it's worth it to get worked up over such an error. There are better things in life than your pronouns.

I dunno, maybe I'm just a hard person to offend. I'd still recommend trying to respect people's pronouns, just out of decency, but I can see why you'd want to make assumptions about the gender of others based on their looks. It was an easy assumption to make, and frankly, it's still a good assumption to make for most people. Nonbinary people and those whose looks do not conform to their gender identity are a small minority.

Quote from: McTraveller
Also incidentally I don't think it's possible to have "no" cultural gender.  Society has basically put all types of human behavior on the masculine/feminine scale.  So you can be somewhere in the middle on that scale, or you can have a mix of traits that span the whole scale, but I don't think that makes you without gender - it just makes you not strongly masculine or feminine.  Just as in those personality tests for being extroverts or introverts - you may not be introverted or extroverted, but you still have a personality.  So I think you do still have a gender - it just doesn't fit in the nice pulldown categories.  It's not "null" - it's "none of the above."

There's a basis of "I don't care, and I refuse to care" when it comes to my approach to gender. It's not that far of a jump for me. In 2016, I fucked up so hard, that I had to tear down my brain and rebuild it from the ground up. One of the things that I identified as "wrong" is that I was a bit of a creep when it came to girls (blame sexual attraction, that uncontrollable beast). So then, I was like "What if I just treated people the same regardless of gender?". So I did. Tore apart any gendered structures, and stopped caring about other people's genders.

And, you wanna know something, it works. Ignoring gender outright means that you have to talk to people as people. There are a few instances where I trip up because of this. Just last night, some girls called me to borrow my bicycle pump, so I offered to let them pick up the pump at my room. Problem is, I completely forgot they were girls, and that girls are not allowed near the boys' dorms, so then they asked me to wait outside, near the dorms. But other than those few instances, people in general respect you more if you treat them as people, rather than merely things to get attracted to. Eliminating gender is just how I do it. At least, that how I see it. Maybe it's just my better social skills that helped me, and I'm misattributing things.

But if you say "oh, other peoples' gender doesn't matter", then at some point, you have to ask yourself "does my gender matter?". And that led to me changing my gender to "null", because I refuse to give a shit about gender. The idea of calling myself a man didn't feel right to me, because that would mean that I actually care, which is patently false.

So yeah, I suppose it is a "none of the above" situation, but then again, I refuse to care. I don't like the idea of searching around for a gender that "suits" me. Too boring. There's better things in life. Erasing it and saying "alright, I don't have a gender" is just the fastest way of symbolizing that I don't care.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 06:25:41 pm by methylatedspirit »
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Rolan7

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1286 on: December 10, 2020, 06:34:19 pm »

I'd only add that intent matters a lot.  I don't care what I get called in public, it's not like I'm wearing (obvious) markers in meatspace.  It isn't some employee's fault that company policy is to call everyone "sir" or "m'am" and I honestly don't take any offense from it.

I've had some in-depth conversations with my mom about gender roles, and my dreams.  And I specifically haven't asked her to use they/them with me because we're already on the same wavelength.  I feel seen and respected (and learned a lot about her as well!)

Whereas my dad just...  Well, he's often anti-PC on purpose, out of clear insecurity, so I give him all the patience I can muster on that front.  But it's *draining*, and I've taken several hiatuses from communicating with him.  It really does get to me, sometimes.  Despite everything, I care what he thinks, and he *thinks* he gets to tell me what my gender is to my face.  Not to mention who I *actually* want to sleep with.

I think he actually sees how patient I am with that bullcrap, though, and he's patient with me in kind.  Relationships are complicated.

But I refuse to accept that shit from peers.  Family and honest mistakes get a pass, but I take offense to being intentionally gendered.  I'm not going to "freak out" though, any more than being called a slur.
I've lost "friends" over this and I don't ever regret that.
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Rolan7

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1287 on: December 11, 2020, 12:35:56 am »

I'm going to be ... well hopefully not misconstrued as being too insensitive or something. This is all personal opinion and my observation.
Asking questions and sharing viewpoints is always okay, in good faith.  You're fine!
Part of the problem with gender terms is somewhere the line between sex, gender, and sexuality has been lost in some of modern culture.  'Male' and 'female' are sexes (genetic/physical).  'Masculine' and 'feminine' are genders (cultural/behavioral/preference).  You can be a feminine male who is attracted to women.  You can be a masculine female attracted to males and females.  You can be a feminine female who isn't particularly attracted to anyone.  You can be a masculine male who is attracted to masculine females, but not feminine females.
This is true to some extent.  "butch" women and "camp" men do exist.  But there are others.  Some people experience intense gender dysphoria in adolescence.  They don't just rebel against the cultural norms expected of them, they face constant discomfort with their bodies.

My personal experience includes a confused and repressed form of that.
My "aged" viewpoint is that these words were enough, and I'm confused as to why we had to invent new ones that a large part of the population doesn't know.  This gets into where social conflict arises:
Can you say, with certainty, what my genitals are?
Sure, you can make an educated guess based on what I've shared.
But would you casually drop that guess in normal conversation?

If we met on the street, would you look at me and guess at my genitals, and then emphasize them as we spoke?
No.

I mean this gently:  Gender is a *social* construct.  It is literally just presentation.  Nothing more, nothing less.
And there are separate words which describe sexual characteristics.
(and even those require more nuance when we talk about intersex people)

If you present yourself in appearance and behavior in line with the cultural expectations of, say, a masculine male and someone for the first time refers to you as 'he', you can't get bent out of shape.
Exactly!  It's all about presentation.
  I'd also say expectations that people are going to be able to overcome years of neural training to remember not only your name but new pronoun is not very realistic (that is, most people have a hard enough time remembering someone's name after a brief meeting, now you have to remember name+pronoun pairs? It's extra mental resources that most humans just don't have).  So for this case, I'm all for the concept of more neutral pronouns. 
Mood.  I have so much trouble remembering peoples' names, and sometimes their pronouns.  It happens.
It's okay.  I mean, eh- it's a social faux pas, and sometimes it really damages peoples' feelings, but it's your intent that matters.
But what I'm not in support of is people being able to present as one stereotype but demand that people refer to them as belonging to another group - because this is basically setting people up for failure.  If you identify as an Apple fan but carry nothing around but Windows and Android gear, how would anyone ever know?
I'm responding to this same idea again because it bears repeating:  It's okay to get someone wrong.  It's probably not your fault.  In my experience, people are understanding - you think trans people, a persecuted class in America, want to start shit on the street?  We die every day from such misunderstandings.
Also incidentally I don't think it's possible to have "no" cultural gender.  Society has basically put all types of human behavior on the masculine/feminine scale.  So you can be somewhere in the middle on that scale, or you can have a mix of traits that span the whole scale, but I don't think that makes you without gender - it just makes you not strongly masculine or feminine.  Just as in those personality tests for being extroverts or introverts - you may not be introverted or extroverted, but you still have a personality.  So I think you do still have a gender - it just doesn't fit in the nice pulldown categories.  It's not "null" - it's "none of the above."
That's an interesting and nuanced take, unironically.  My personal understanding of nonbinary could probably apply to almost anyone, as it's pretty much "not being beholden to either of the two (modern) (local state) understandings of gender".  But I tend to over-empathize (sic).
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methylatedspirit

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1288 on: December 11, 2020, 07:24:05 pm »

Every time I say something about something sufficiently complex, there's always multiple possible narratives that I could be pushing. I just choose whichever one feels best at the time. Of course, I don't think this makes it inherently inconsistent; the common thing holding these narratives together is that they must all converge to the same conclusion.

But then there's this feeling of regret(?) that develops a few days after posting, where it's like "Oh, I could've said it this way, and it would've produced these insights". I don't think I could wait; I get so fixated on one particular narrative that I can't see any others. But then I hit "post", and all the other possible narratives hit me like a fucking tsunami. Editing might work, but I'm not sure if there's much benefit to that, and it might add bloat to a post, making it hard to read.
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Rolan7

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Re: Random thoughts - On the Origins of "I Could Eat A Horse"
« Reply #1289 on: December 11, 2020, 09:20:13 pm »

I mean this gently:  Gender is a *social* construct.  It is literally just presentation.  Nothing more, nothing less.
And there are separate words which describe sexual characteristics.
(and even those require more nuance when we talk about intersex people)
This isn't quite right.  Gender *is* a social construct, but it's personal identity.  Not just outward presentation.  As well I know, I guess.
My point that it's okay to make honest mistakes stands, though.  As long as they're honest.

Edit1: It's kinda like having someone call you by a nickname you don't like.  Even when you ask them to stop.  That's disrespect for no benefit to them.
Edit2:
I mean, it's sorta one of those instances where it's important to remember gender identity is something you give to yourself. It's your identity, not anyone else's. Me, I don't care if you call me a boy if you saw me out in public and I didn't introduce myself to you. If that's who you think I am, then I guess... that's what I look like? I don't really care. To me, I'm happy enough that I can call myself agender, and no-one can take that away from me. I'd prefer they/them, of course, but I don't really expect that of people, as a general rule. People are often disappointing and unreliable, and I see no reason why they won't be as such when dealing with pronouns.
Just... that.  Total agreement.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 09:32:16 pm by Rolan7 »
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