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Author Topic: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants  (Read 2109 times)

urgeblind

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Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« on: April 04, 2018, 05:38:46 pm »

I started a colony of dorfs near a sea on an icy tundra. No trees, no rocks, deep soil and an aquifer 3 layers down. Had to expose the aquifer to the surface, turning it to ice, so I could dig down and finally find some rock. So, you can imagine, I'm gonna want to trade with merchants that rock on by.

But the merchants, they come, unload, and then quickly pack up and go before I get much of a chance to trade!

Perhaps they get cold? I did build the depot out of ice.

Is it a bug that they leave so quickly?
Here's the save: http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13648
edit: wrong link
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 09:23:28 pm by urgeblind »
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2018, 06:25:55 pm »

Are there any errant body parts about? They spook super easy.
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Quietust

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2018, 06:44:30 pm »

Are you sure you uploaded the right save? The one you linked to is in a tree-filled Savanna (not a Tundra) surrounded by Mountains (not Ocean), and the only trade depot there is made of Billon (not Ice)...

[edit] Looks like you linked to the wrong save - the one you uploaded is http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13648, not http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13647.

There might be something wrong with your world, considering there are 7 Great Horned Owl Men claiming to be citizens of your fortress. Also, Legends mode indicates that no caravans have ever visited this fortress - are you absolutely sure this is the right one?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 07:25:40 pm by Quietust »
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It's amazing how dwarves can make a stack of bones completely waterproof and magmaproof.
It's amazing how they can make an entire floodgate out of the bones of 2 cats.

urgeblind

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2018, 09:29:21 pm »

Are you sure you uploaded the right save? The one you linked to is in a tree-filled Savanna (not a Tundra) surrounded by Mountains (not Ocean), and the only trade depot there is made of Billon (not Ice)...

[edit] Looks like you linked to the wrong save - the one you uploaded is http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13648, not http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13647.

There might be something wrong with your world, considering there are 7 Great Horned Owl Men claiming to be citizens of your fortress. Also, Legends mode indicates that no caravans have ever visited this fortress - are you absolutely sure this is the right one?

Thanks!, you're right, it was the wrong link, I edited it so the original post links to the correct save. Sorry for the lack of information.  The save linked is moments before the first caravan arrives. You will see that the caravan comes, sets up, then the same moment it unpacks, it loads up and goes away.

I use Meth's tileset, which has the dfhack utility installed. and occasionally I partake of it. In this case I did -tweak makeown the great horned men. Thought it would be neat. But really they just fly around the place. Either way, I don't think it's the reason behind the caravan issue.
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urgeblind

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2018, 09:30:52 pm »

Are there any errant body parts about? They spook super easy.

There's Polar bear men around! They're a little scary. They've been nicking my booze, so the dorfs dont like em much.
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Leonidas

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2018, 10:20:24 pm »

I've had caravans spook very easily on sighting hostiles. And when they drop their stuff or get killed, the objects cluttering the surface sometimes get stuck in a permanent state of unclear ownership. They show up in the stocks screen, but I can't do anything with them.

My best solution is a caravan tunnel all the way to the map edge, sealed to keep the critters out. It's a little exploit-y, but what else can you do to ensure their safety with dangerous wildlife about? I would love to see a notice of when and where the caravan will arrive, or even a mission to send a squad to escort the caravan to and from the fortress.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2018, 02:27:09 am »

Caravans are easily spooked, as mentioned (although less now than in earlier versions). Body parts of sapients can scare them, and I think dangerous wildlife might do that to. When they do get scared they scuttle their goods (and, in the case of wagons, the wagon deconstructs/dies). Frequently this leads to the caravan leaving/fleeing, but I've had a couple of cases with recent versions where one caravan member scuttles but the rest continue to trade.
Anyway, you need to keep the map free of body parts from sapients, at least the parts where the caravans may go (which is just about everywhere on the surface). Keep your corpse stockpile well out of sight from the trade depot (and routes to it).
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urgeblind

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2018, 04:37:27 am »

Caravans are easily spooked, as mentioned (although less now than in earlier versions). Body parts of sapients can scare them, and I think dangerous wildlife might do that to. When they do get scared they scuttle their goods (and, in the case of wagons, the wagon deconstructs/dies). Frequently this leads to the caravan leaving/fleeing, but I've had a couple of cases with recent versions where one caravan member scuttles but the rest continue to trade.
Anyway, you need to keep the map free of body parts from sapients, at least the parts where the caravans may go (which is just about everywhere on the surface). Keep your corpse stockpile well out of sight from the trade depot (and routes to it).
Noted, will keep my corpse piles in the mess hall from now on!
The reason I thought it were a bug is that the caravan passes the object of fear, sees it, rolls on up to the trade depot sets up, then goes "nuh-uh", and buggers off.
I don't think they got scared while setting up, but received the "dose of fear" while traveling to the depot
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Quietust

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2018, 06:57:45 am »

I just loaded the fortress and unpaused it, and once the caravan showed up, it successfully made it to the depot and unloaded without fleeing, and it even stayed long enough for some Migrants to show up (at which point I closed the game, since I don't have time to check it further right now).
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P.S. If you don't get this note, let me know and I'll write you another.
It's amazing how dwarves can make a stack of bones completely waterproof and magmaproof.
It's amazing how they can make an entire floodgate out of the bones of 2 cats.

urgeblind

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2018, 11:42:54 pm »

I just loaded the fortress and unpaused it, and once the caravan showed up, it successfully made it to the depot and unloaded without fleeing, and it even stayed long enough for some Migrants to show up (at which point I closed the game, since I don't have time to check it further right now).

Cheers Quietust, that's good to know; it may be something to do with my game. The same thing happened to me three times in a row when I tested it, so it is likely something on my end.
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Damiac

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2018, 10:57:34 am »

As a side note, I always have merchants pathing right by my big corpse/refuse stockpile, full of goblin, berserk dwarf (I keep getting failed moods, really not sure what they want), and other various corpses and limbs, and the merchants never seem to get scared off by it.

In the past, I had a corpse of a citizen stuck in a tree (guess how he died) and the merchants spotted it, which did immediately scare them away. I repeatedly save scummed until either they came from a different direction or I managed to get the corpse away fast enough, I don't remember, but once I got the corpse taken care of in time they stopped running away.

So I don't think it's really about sapient corpses/parts, and more about citizen corpses/parts.

I have no mods installed, this is with the very newest version, but I've had this same behavior as far back as I can remember.  I didn't play much of the release that initially added discipline though, I know they were extra easy to scare then, so maybe that's where the corpse stockpile recommendations come from.  I never noticed any bad thoughts from my corpse stockpile, some of them don't like the process when goblins and such go from alive -> dead but they don't seem to mind the results either way.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2018, 12:20:45 pm »

Iffin ya got DFhack, showmood will tell you what they want.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Sutremaine

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Re: Is this a bug? Flighty Merchants
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2018, 05:09:13 pm »

(I keep getting failed moods, really not sure what they want)
Some suggestions:

Yarn cloth, plant cloth, and silk cloth are all different things, even if the dwarf doesn't communicate what kind of cloth they want.
If you've smelted a bar of something and the dwarf likes that something, they'll want it.
If you've made glass of a certain type, it might be wanted. I'm not too sure about how this one works, but if you want to make rough glass of a particular type, keep some in reserve.
I'm not sure what 'certain things' are. Might be skulls, might be vermin remains. Either way, something's gotta die for it.
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Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.