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Poll

On the topic of rebalancing Weapon Tiers... (please read the second post before voting)

Increase the amount of Tiers, e.g. make better weapons cost more
- 1 (11.1%)
Remove redundant weapons
- 5 (55.6%)
Do both
- 3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 9


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Author Topic: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.6)  (Read 30228 times)

DerMeister

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.5)
« Reply #135 on: May 22, 2019, 03:54:13 pm »

I make ogre weapons for vanilla.
Code: [Select]
[OBJECT:ITEM]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_GIANT]
[NAME:axe:axes]
[ADJECTIVE:giant]
[SIZE:2600]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:300500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:220500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:9]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:10000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100000:10000:slap:slaps:flat:1000]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:10000:strike:strikes:pommel:750]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_FLAIL_GIANT]
[NAME:slungshot:slungshots]
[ADJECTIVE:giant]
[SIZE:1500]
[SKILL:MACE]
[TWO_HANDED:300500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:220500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
[ATTACK:EDGE:10:200:strike:strikes:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_LUEBER]
[NAME:lueber:luebers]
[SIZE:2000]
[SKILL:WHIP]
[TWO_HANDED:300500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:220500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:10000:saw:saws:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_LOGBOW]
[NAME:log bow:log bows]
[SIZE:3000]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[RANGED:BOW:BALLISTIC]
[SHOOT_FORCE:3000]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:200]
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:300500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100000:40000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_WARLOG]
[NAME:war log:war logs]
[SIZE:5000]
[SKILL:MACE]
[TWO_HANDED:300500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:220500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:8]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:200:2000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[TRAINING]

[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_GIANT_ARROWS]
[NAME:ballista arrow:ballista arrows]
[CLASS:BALLISTIC]
[SIZE:600]
[ATTACK:EDGE:5:1000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
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Burneddi

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.5)
« Reply #136 on: June 04, 2019, 03:53:13 am »

Dropping by to say thanks for the old clothing option. The mod installation procedure is getting quite lengthy with all the optional stuff, so I can only imagine it must be a bit of a pain to maintain it all... so thanks!
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Andimar

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.5)
« Reply #137 on: September 10, 2019, 07:22:37 pm »

Hey there!

I was wondering... Which armor parts should I take to be completely covered as if I was wearing full plate?

Breastplate, Greaves, Mail Skirt (for the hips), Full Arm Defenses and Full Helm?

For a total cost of 59 metal bars (if using simple iron)?
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Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.5)
« Reply #138 on: September 11, 2019, 07:45:00 am »

All correct, but you can replace the Mail Skirt with a metal Belt. The bodies are not three-part yet, so the hips will be protected by the Breastplate anyway.
That would be 45 bars (of any metal below Tempered Steel, which is more demanding).

You can also add Pauldrons for 2 bars to get a 20% blockchance when eyes are hit, with only a small additional weight; Mail Cape is similar, giving a 50% chance, but it cannot stop heavy strikes. Padded Armor, Doublet and Aketon also fully protect the eyes for little weight, but they fare poorly against sharp strikes. If encumbrance and metal are not a concern, Body Plates give 60% blockchance for 8 bars, but I'd say that's overkill for an otherwise full plate: eyes don't get hit that often, unless the wearer is already loosing in some way.
Padded Armor + Mail Cape is probably the best option here, although, you'll need to replace the damaged Padded Armor from time to time.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 07:56:33 am by Sver »
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DF Combat Reworked
The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

sum1won

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.5)
« Reply #139 on: October 08, 2019, 09:06:04 am »

Ptw

Edit: Im planning on using this mod, but would like to add scales or boiled leather as a non-metal substitute for some of the shaped armors.  Can I get your feedback on a few questions?

1.)
I haven't modded df, but I figure I need to add a new material, a reaction to create that material, and a reaction to turn it into armor, and make sure  those reactions are added to the entity file.  Is there anything I am missing? 

How do I avoid scales/boiled leather being usable for other leather goods, like bags or trousers?  Can I do it by having the material-change reaction affect the prepared armor instead?


 Any suggestions as to raw values and material quantities?   Anything else I should be aware of?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 02:02:26 pm by sum1won »
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sum1won

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Re: Sver's DF Combat Reworked
« Reply #140 on: October 08, 2019, 04:42:11 pm »

Current poll:

Currently, all ranged weapons and their sets in the mod are assigned a skill based on their vague mutual alikeness of whether they require to be loaded, then aimed and then shot (like crossbows) or loaded, aimed and shot at the same moment (like bows and throwing weapons). As I personally see it, this has two issues: (1) the Bowman (aka Skirmisher) skill is an unintuitive mess, and (2) the way worldgen hunters/adventurers work, they mainly train the Crossbowman skill, which, in the mod, contains 2/3rds battlefield ranged weapons, rather than those fit for hunting.

However, only these two skills, Bowman and Crossbowman, are properly recognized by ranged npc unifroms.

As such, I've came up with two alternative skill distributions for ranged weapons, based on their nature/purpose, rather than mechanics:

"Light" vs "Heavy".
In the other words, "hunting/skirmish" vs "battlefield". "Light" would include crossbows, bows, slings and javelins/darts; using the Crossbowman skill as a base (renamed to "Skirmisher"), to match the way worldgen treats it. "Heavy" would include arbalests, longbows and hand ballistas; using the Bowman skill as a base (renamed to "Marksman/Marksdwarf").

"Stringed" vs "Throwing".
Not as much in terms of realism mechanics, as in tune with the balance of the mod, where sling and spear-thrower weapon sets allow for shields. "Stringed" would include crossbows, arbalests, bows, longbows and hand ballistas; using the Crossbowman skill as a base (renamed to "Marksman/Marksdwarf"), as stringed weapons are probably more fit for hunting than the throwing ones. "Throwing" would include slings and javelins/darts; using the Bowman skill as a base (renamed to "Skirmisher").

The only downside in both cases is the displacement of bows/crossbows from their usual respective skills. As such, "no to both" remains an option :)

Also, feel free to comment and propose your own ideas.

I like both of these proposed changes.  The only direct difference is where the bow and crossbow fall.  String groups them with the big guns, light/heavy leaves the big guns alone.


 I think the string distinction is more intuitive and lore-logical.  The main advantage for light/heavy is a possible balance concern in connection with the weapon sets.  It doesn't allow crossbowmen+bowmen to easily switch to heavier weapons, and hunting crosstraining will be more difficult  If you want the split to be flexibility/better melee options (and sometimes shields) vs ranged power, it's probably the way to go.  The most obvious thing is thing is when it comes to bow setd, which have some pretty potent 2h options.  (Longbows, not being available to dwarves, are irrelevant to player choice in fortress mode).

Separately, can you add info on ranged weapons to post 13, similar to what you have for melee?
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Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.5)
« Reply #141 on: October 09, 2019, 07:52:10 am »

Im planning on using this mod, but would like to add scales or boiled leather as a non-metal substitute for some of the shaped armors.  Can I get your feedback on a few questions?

I haven't modded df, but I figure I need to add a new material, a reaction to create that material, and a reaction to turn it into armor, and make sure  those reactions are added to the entity file.  Is there anything I am missing?

...

Anything else I should be aware of?

If you want to have only the specific (normally metal) armors made of the new material then that's all correct. There is a couple things to consider, though:

1) There are two elements to every material: the template and the material itself. The material itself is defined either within a creature or within an "inorganic" file. Adding creature-variable materials is much more tedious, so I recommend the latter. You can use the [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:LEATHER_TEMPLATE] as a base to which you then add overrides, basically.

2) Unless you add the [SPECIAL] tag to the material, it will be used by the AI too, but only in the conventional way. To illustrate, if you make boiled leather that is otherwise just leather with extra durability, the AI will make "boiled leather lamellar armor" and "boiled leather bag", but never "boiled leather breastplate", even if you give them the reaction. If you don't want caravans bringing "boiled leather bags", add this tag.

3) In contrast to the previous point, if you add [ITEMS_ARMOR] (not normally present on leather) to the material, but won't add [SPECIAL], the AI will make all sorts of armor from boiled leather as long as they have the reaction to make the material - the specific armor-making reactions aren't necessary; and worldgen artifact armors will sometimes be made of boiled leather regardless of any reactions.

4) There are subtleties to how the uniform system treats a material which aren't always intuitive. For instance, there's a high chance that you'd have to specify a boiled leather breastplate as 'brown breastplate' for it to be equipped.

5) There are probably other things I haven't memorized, so you'd have to test that.

How do I avoid scales/boiled leather being usable for other leather goods, like bags or trousers?  Can I do it by having the material-change reaction affect the prepared armor instead?

The simplest way is to have each reaction take normal leather (and whatever else you wish to be required) as a reagent, yet a boiled leather armorpiece as a product. Reactions are flexible like that, they don't require consistency between the reagent and the product.

Any suggestions as to raw values and material quantities?

My mod operates within the vanilla material properties, so my suggestion would be to look at normal leather and copper values and make something inbetween. As for the amount of leather required, that's up to your personal preference - just note that all textile (padded) armors only require a single piece of cloth.
If, however, you intend to make boiled leather stronger than copper, you can equate the number of leather pieces to the number of metal bars required to forge the same garment. For the sake of balance.

Quote from: sum1won
The main advantage for light/heavy is a possible balance concern in connection with the weapon sets.  It doesn't allow crossbowmen+bowmen to easily switch to heavier weapons, and hunting crosstraining will be more difficult  If you want the split to be flexibility/better melee options (and sometimes shields) vs ranged power, it's probably the way to go.

That is an interesting perspective I haven't even considered!
Hm-hm... so far, the poll results are quite divided and I was on the verge of just letting this idea go for the sake of keeping it vanilla and, thus, newbie-friendly. I'll have to ponder it for some time in the context of skill versatility. Especially since the ongoing two-handed vs one-handed rebalance will promt some changes to weapon sets.

Quote from: sum1won
Separately, can you add info on ranged weapons to post 13, similar to what you have for melee?

Not in the same way, no. Ranged weapons don't differ as much within their own group as the melee ones, and they also have ammo that is different yet sometimes similar across variations. The info is already there, it's just randomly spread around in the top post, and in Tips, and in the weapon list. I've yet to come up with a conscise way to put it all together under a single spoiler, but it needs to be done for sure.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 12:51:00 pm by Sver »
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DF Combat Reworked
The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

sum1won

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.5)
« Reply #142 on: October 14, 2019, 08:03:41 pm »

--boiled leather tips--
Thanks!  I got sidetracked by some other changes I wound up making, but I'll dig into this at some point.


That is an interesting perspective I haven't even considered!
Hm-hm... so far, the poll results are quite divided and I was on the verge of just letting this idea go for the sake of keeping it vanilla and, thus, newbie-friendly. I'll have to ponder it for some time in the context of skill versatility. Especially since the ongoing two-handed vs one-handed rebalance will prompt some changes to weapon sets.
Cool, looking forward to it!

I've been digging into the raws, and was wondering why slings appear to fire edged weapons? 
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Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.5)
« Reply #143 on: October 15, 2019, 05:32:34 am »

I've been digging into the raws, and was wondering why slings appear to fire edged weapons?

To simulate abrasions. Also, so that slings perform a bit better overall, particularly against clothing. The way damage types work in DF, blunt damage is extremely weak unless applied with great force, and is largely held back by the lack of bleeding wounds and damage to elastic equipment, such as clothing and mail. Thus, only a select few weapons and ammo types are blunt-only (those that generally strike with huge velocity).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 05:35:10 am by Sver »
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DF Combat Reworked
The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.5)
« Reply #144 on: October 23, 2019, 10:41:45 am »

The mechanical part of the update is done, so what's left is to apply these changes to weapon sets and civs and then merge the Revised v2.2.0 files in. Should be soonish.
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DF Combat Reworked
The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.5)
« Reply #145 on: November 02, 2019, 11:25:51 am »

v1.6 Released

Major changes:
* Full support for Revised v2.2.0!
* Weapon velocity and size limits rebalance!
Spoiler: Details (click to show/hide)
* A buff for stabbing-oriented weapons! They were way underpowered.
Spoiler: Details (click to show/hide)
* Rebalanced production for new steels!
Spoiler: Details (click to show/hide)
* Multiattack modifiers, both good and bad, were thoughtfully redistributed for all weapons based on attack and weapon design specifics.
* New type of ammo: crescent arrows. Leave wide, shallow wounds, good for causing bleeding in small to average creatures, but really weak against armor.
* Readjusted the costs of armor a bit. Garments with 100% protection now cost more, except for footwear and full helm. Handwear is generally cheaper, as well as most gear with a low blockchance. Full plate armor with no eye protection still takes 45 bars. Full mail armor with a skullcap and no eye protection is now 17 bars.
* Added 'loosely hack' attack to bearded axe, to make it a bit weaker, but removed the 'slap' attack.
* Removed 'thrust with spike' attack from flanged mace to make it more bashing-oriented.
* Replaced 'jab' attack with 'feint and jab' for scimitar.
* Spike strikes for halberd, poleaxe and polehammer were nerfed to minimize penetration depth.
* Reduced penetration for morningstar 'bash' attack.
* Increased area for maul. Was too good at damaging armor.
* Seriously reduced penetration and increased area for hatchet.
* Reduced area for hooked axe 'strike with spike' attack, now better at piercing armor.
* Cushioning properties for cloth (THREAD_PLANT_TEMPLATE), silk (SILK_TEMPLATE) and hair (HAIR_TEMPLATE) have been dialed down to standard 1x elasticity (compared to vanilla 2x elasticity). Lower elasticity was making them a tad too powerful.
* Made fat (FAT_TEMPLATE) as strong as skin against force transfer, for layer consistency.
* Chitin (CHITIN_TEMPLATE) can once again be used as a shell - for moods, certain items and armors. It no longer yields leather. This differs from its use in Revised as bone, but I felt like there aren't enough interesting materials for shell armor in the game, and chitinous creatures are rare and dangerous enough to justify it.
* Bone is back in place of cartilage for fingers/toes/fins, as "finger bone agony" has been fixed.
* Removed muscle from vertebrate's fingers/toes, but thickened the skin. In reality, fingers/toes only have sinew, not muscle.
* Renamed 'mallet' to 'war club' and changed the tag accordingly. Also, reduced its contact area. It really didn't feel like a tiny tool hammer belongs on a battlefield.

Minor changes:
** A bit more info in Melee Weapon Tiers.
** Removed biting from war horses.
** Some adjustments to optional tactical civs.
Spoiler: Details (click to show/hide)
** Added aketons and quilted tunics to dwarven preset.
** Replaced full helm with mail coif for elves, as it protects better for wood.
** Made training weapons heavier.
** Fixed some incorrect attack speeds.
** All 'closely hack' attacks are a bit quicker now.
** All 'shove' attacks now use the same speed as 'feint and jab'. Also, reduced its area for several weapons.
** Removed 'slap' attack from horned axe.
** Removed 'hook' attack from hooked axe, broadaxe and falx.
** Minor speed readjustments for hooked axe, poleaxe, polehammer and two-handed sword.
** Slightly reduced velocities for poleaxe.
** Increased minsize requirement for spear-thrower and all its sets. Also, slightly increased it for sling.
** Replaced 'bash' (with handle) attack for spiked staff with a pommel-like 'strike' attack.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 04:42:52 am by Sver »
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DF Combat Reworked
The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.6)
« Reply #146 on: November 02, 2019, 11:27:41 am »

A new poll is up.
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DF Combat Reworked
The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.6)
« Reply #147 on: November 04, 2019, 05:03:44 pm »

I'd also like to point all those who like Fort mode combat, but are tired of the cumbersome siege clean up, towards the .../%DF folder%/data/init/d_init.txt
There are two values which control the amount of invaders in a token siege:
1) INVASION_SOLDIER_CAP controls the number of civilized soldiers, such as goblins. This also ties into the maximum possible number of mounts (equal to that).
2) INVASION_MONSTER_CAP controls the amount of minions, such as trolls. This does not impact mounts.

A good starting point is to set these values in such a way that they, combined, would equal your estimated population (say, 80, for a siege-eligible minimum), but if that's still too many corpses, making it double-tripple the estimated number of your own soldiers is a good pick too.

To counterbalance the reduction in numbers, I recommend applying a buff to invader skills and gains (unless you have already done so following my suggestion in the installation instructions). Open the creature_standard.txt and add the following:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This will keep combat challenging and fun while reducing the tedium and stress of post-siege clean up.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 05:05:53 pm by Sver »
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DF Combat Reworked
The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

OOTN

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.6)
« Reply #148 on: December 06, 2019, 02:59:08 am »

This and revised are my first foray into modding the game and I'm interested to know how many people actually use the adrenaline mod. Is it too much?
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Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.6)
« Reply #149 on: December 06, 2019, 06:46:38 am »

Adrenaline mainly impacts two things: how long it takes to take down a defensive unit (which makes specific counters like anti-armor weapons more important), and how the invaders compare to a trained militia. There's also an impact on how live organic creatures compare to undeads and inorganics, but its kinda too subtle.

In general, I would recommend to try out your first run with my mod without the adrenaline, and only take it for the second run if you feel the combat is still too easy.
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DF Combat Reworked
The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.
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