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Author Topic: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)  (Read 79804 times)

Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #240 on: April 28, 2020, 07:41:02 am »

So now we got all that salvage from them, that's probably like 2000+ bars of steel. Basically, an unlimited supply for the rest of the game and no more " steel scarcity" immersion.

Indeed, goblinite creates an imbalance in that regard, I'm still figuring ways to counteract that. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to go too much into the other direction either, as even steel equipment will break from time to time and need replacement. Also, there are multiple uses for huge amounts of metal designed for mid-to-late game, such as full plate armors, unbreakable shields, hand ballistas and various steel ammo (mainly war darts to counter forgotten beasts and the like).

Edit: as to why these zombies are all clad in steel, the reason is the necro who raised them apparently comes from some type of human civilization that only uses steel (there are 2 or 3 like that, I recall). The "lore" behind it is that they're on a Late Medieval tech level.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 07:51:16 am by Sver »
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Vulpes_Inculta

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #241 on: April 28, 2020, 12:35:44 pm »

Well vanilla lore is that steel is kind of a rare dwarf exclusive thing and the best humans normally have is iron, if Im not mistaken. I kinda liked it more that way, at least in the Fortress mode. Would be better if non dwarfs were mostly limited to bronze/iron in your mod too. Especially if you are saying you made iron still okay and able to do the job.

But this is only my personal humble opinion.

Guess I'll try adventurer mode now instead :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 12:43:28 pm by Vulpes_Inculta »
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #242 on: April 28, 2020, 01:07:34 pm »

Some humans still are limited to that. Other than variety and flavor, them having steel is also more tangible in other editions of the mod, where metals can still cut through each other. I personally like to have some human civs as a possible late game opponent for a confident player to provoke  ;)
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Iä! RIAKTOR!

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #243 on: April 28, 2020, 03:29:06 pm »

So now we got all that salvage from them, that's probably like 2000+ bars of steel. Basically, an unlimited supply for the rest of the game and no more " steel scarcity" immersion.

Indeed, goblinite creates an imbalance in that regard, I'm still figuring ways to counteract that. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to go too much into the other direction either, as even steel equipment will break from time to time and need replacement. Also, there are multiple uses for huge amounts of metal designed for mid-to-late game, such as full plate armors, unbreakable shields, hand ballistas and various steel ammo (mainly war darts to counter forgotten beasts and the like).

Edit: as to why these zombies are all clad in steel, the reason is the necro who raised them apparently comes from some type of human civilization that only uses steel (there are 2 or 3 like that, I recall). The "lore" behind it is that they're on a Late Medieval tech level.
I think, only dwarves are Late Medieval, when humans are not.
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #244 on: April 28, 2020, 03:58:05 pm »

Vanilla DF is abstractly up to mid 14th century, as there's no full plate, but the metallurgy is all over the place. Either way, "tactical civs" in my mod got their own themes and accompanying tech levels.
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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #245 on: April 28, 2020, 04:22:39 pm »

Vanilla DF is abstractly up to mid 14th century, as there's no full plate, but the metallurgy is all over the place. Either way, "tactical civs" in my mod got their own themes and accompanying tech levels.
In vanilla DF dwarves caped to absctract 14th century, when humans has lower tech level than dwarves.
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Vulpes_Inculta

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #246 on: April 29, 2020, 02:42:24 am »

Just got an idea here :)

What if I go to the new Human/Goblin entity files and delete:

[PERMITTED_REACTION:STEEL_MAKING]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:TEMPERED_STEEL_MAKING_SVER]  =SVER_METALREWORK=
[PERMITTED_REACTION:TEMPERED_STEEL_MAKING_FLUX_SVER]  =SVER_METALREWORK=

from each one of them that have it. Is it gonna make them use bronze/iron instead of steel but keep them as designed otherwise?

New world and new game of course.



Also, a bit of a feedback on metals. I think it could make sense to reduce grease requirements for Iron a bit. Cause right now, it's arguably MORE expensive to make than Steel, if you have flux on your map. it requires twice as much grease as steel (made with flux), and acquiring tallow for grease takes significantly more effort than just collecting bayberries or burning more charcoal from wood. Therefore I just skip Iron without even considering it. Wouldn't it be better to set it's grease requirement to 2 buckets per smelt, down from 4, same as steel?

Bronze is more balanced in this regards because it requires mostly different resources to make and can perfectly co-exist with iron/steel in your manufacture plan.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 02:48:25 am by Vulpes_Inculta »
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #247 on: April 29, 2020, 05:31:58 am »

What if I go to the new Human/Goblin entity files and delete:

[PERMITTED_REACTION:STEEL_MAKING]
[PERMITTED_REACTION:TEMPERED_STEEL_MAKING_SVER]  =SVER_METALREWORK=
[PERMITTED_REACTION:TEMPERED_STEEL_MAKING_FLUX_SVER]  =SVER_METALREWORK=

from each one of them that have it. Is it gonna make them use bronze/iron instead of steel but keep them as designed otherwise?

As long as you keep an eye on them having at least these also:

[PERMITTED_REACTION:VINEGAR_MAKING_PLANT_SVER]  =SVER_METALREWORK=
[PERMITTED_REACTION:WROUGHT_IRON_MAKING_SVER]  =SVER_METALREWORK=

Since raw metals in Full Edition cannot be used for stuff.

Also, they will become less dangerous than designed, but that's on you ;)

Also, a bit of a feedback on metals. I think it could make sense to reduce grease requirements for Iron a bit. Cause right now, it's arguably MORE expensive to make than Steel, if you have flux on your map. it requires twice as much grease as steel (made with flux), and acquiring tallow for grease takes significantly more effort than just collecting bayberries or burning more charcoal from wood. Therefore I just skip Iron without even considering it. Wouldn't it be better to set it's grease requirement to 2 buckets per smelt, down from 4, same as steel?

Originally I made it this way because, theoretically, you can run an iron industry entirely while turtling, but steel requires some sort of contact with the surface (trade, bees or collecting berries). However, I think you're right in that it probably should be cheaper than the cheapest way to make steel. On the other hand, even with flux steel requires 1 sack of coal per bar more, which is arguably a higher expense than grease.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 05:40:45 am by Sver »
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Vulpes_Inculta

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #248 on: April 29, 2020, 06:39:19 am »

Well they should also become more dangerous in a way, cause I won't have unlimited steel and militia in steel full plate after a single encounter with undead chaff :) Not to mention those enemy civs that didnt have steel to begin with, ain't that so?

If by turtling you mean locking yourself away from the surface completely with invasions unable to reach you, IMO that's cheap. And shouldn't be a factor in balancing things like metal costs. Idk if it's considered a viable strategy in DF community but to me it's just an exploit. They will hopefully teach invaders how to dig, eventually :D

And on the grease matter. From my experience with the new metal industry you introduced, grease is the most valuable element of the whole system. Everything else you can get in larger amounts by just throwing more workforce at certain tasks. Coal is nothing but an amount of trees you can chop, collect and burn. Bags you need to put it in can be ordered and brought with the second dwarven caravan by the hundreds. While grease means tallow, and for tallow you need to kill animals, which you usually don't have an unlimited amount of on your map.

Edit: Ah wait, there is also oil. I don't farm often hence why my experience is as such. But still, farming for oil producing products strikes me as more effort than just chopping trees.

P.S. Steel with flux requires 0.5 sacks of coal more per bar if your "new metals.png" table doesn't lie :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 06:59:40 am by Vulpes_Inculta »
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #249 on: April 29, 2020, 07:16:15 am »

Not to mention those enemy civs that didnt have steel to begin with, ain't that so?

Well, those are specifically designed to be weaker :D
But yeah, it's not that big of a deal probably, just lowers the importance of anti-steel weapons.

If by turtling you mean locking yourself away from the surface completely with invasions unable to reach you, IMO that's cheap. And shouldn't be a factor in balancing things like metal costs. Idk if it's considered a viable strategy in DF community but to me it's just an exploit.

There are some less exploity ways, such as using destructable blockades (doors, floodgates, grates), which I view as a fair game. But you're right in that I probably shouldn't focus much on it.

P.S. Steel with flux requires 0.5 sacks of coal more per bar if your "new metals.png" table doesn't lie

...Right. Should've said "per reaction".
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Vulpes_Inculta

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #250 on: April 29, 2020, 07:28:30 am »

Btw, a quick noobish question about this and the adventurer mode. Say, I turn off the availability of steel for human and goblin civs (basically, vanilla state) and then play as a Human adventurer, am I going to never find a human sized steel armor anywhere? Or can it still be generated somewhere for the looting even if civs don't normally produce it?

If the answer is yes it can, but the details contain adventuring spoilers, please don't go into details :D :D
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #251 on: April 29, 2020, 07:46:55 am »

No, the way DF handles it, in Adventure Mode you can only encounter things that civs are allowed to produce. I think there are better than steel armors out there sometimes, not sure if sized for humans though.
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Mim

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #252 on: May 14, 2020, 02:30:51 pm »

Hello!
So a long while ago I planned to make a The Lord of the Rings mod for Dwarf Fortress. However, I was way over my head and overly ambitious, as I was still relatively new to Dwarf Fortress. With summer coming up, I am going to resume work on the mod.
Anyway, in your mod scimitars are of a size that only large dwarves can wield them. In Tolkien's books (not the movies), orcs are small, certainly smaller than dwarves, for 2 chief reasons:
- Frodo and Sam, who are hobbits, were able to disguise themselves convincingly as orcs
- A an orc-chieftain who is described as huge for an orc is also described as being almost man-high, which means even the biggest orcs aren't as tall as men
So I am going to be using goblin-size creatures for orcs. Now in Tolkien's books orcs also wield scimitars and shields, but they certainly won't be able to do so because of the size of scimitars in this mod. Is it possible you could add a smaller scimitar to the mod, in addition to the current scimitar? This would make sense because historically one-handed scimitars did exist—the word "scimitar" encompasses a wide variety of swords.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 02:32:58 pm by Mim »
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Mim

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #253 on: May 14, 2020, 02:31:40 pm »

Hello!
So a long while ago I planned to make a The Lord of the Rings mod for Dwarf Fortress. However, I was way over my head and overly ambitious, as I was still relatively new to Dwarf Fortress. With summer coming up, I am going to resume work on the mod.
Anyway, in your mod scimitars are of a size that only large dwarves can wield them. In Tolkien's books (not the movies), orcs are small, certainly smaller than dwarves, for 2 chief reasons:
- Frodo and Sam, who are hobbits, were able to disguise themselves convincingly as orcs
- A an orc-chieftain who is described as huge for an orc is also described as being almost man-high, which means even the biggest orcs aren't as tall as men
So I am going to be using goblin-size creatures for orcs. Now in Tolkien's books orcs also wield scimitars and shields, but they certainly won't be able to do so because of the size of scimitars in this mod. Is it possible you could add a smaller scimitar to the mod? This would make sense because historically one-handed scimitars did exist—the word "scimitar" encompasses a wide variety of swords.
Oh oops, I forgot to make this clear: I really love your mod and hope to integrate it with the The Lord of the Rings mod.
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #254 on: May 14, 2020, 11:46:30 pm »

Hey!
In the mod, the war knife is essentially the smaller, one-handed version of the scimitar, both being swords designed for "swift, but shallow cuts". Whilst integrating, you can simply rename it. Alternatively, you can edit the scimitar's TWO_HANDED and MINIMUN_SIZE values to your liking - there are no side effects from it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 11:48:09 pm by Sver »
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