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Poll

On the topic of rebalancing Weapon Tiers... (please read the second post before voting)

Increase the amount of Tiers, e.g. make better weapons cost more
- 1 (20%)
Remove redundant weapons
- 3 (60%)
Do both
- 1 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 5


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Author Topic: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.6)  (Read 24582 times)

Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.3.1)
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2018, 11:57:04 am »

So it's the BP size of the joints... interesting. Well, I may look into it once the new version of Revised gets released - there'd be some body alterations I'd like to include, might as well look into other similar tweaks.

Yeah, it's possible that the melee AI just goes after smaller bodyparts because they are easier to damage.

Thanks again for all you answers!
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fonzacus

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.3.1)
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2018, 01:39:58 pm »

weapon balancing does seem like a tough issue, as id consider wep sets OP. what if you removed all solo weps? i love them BTW because it 'imitates' dwarves using their secondary weapon instead of bashing with their crossbow, while also using a shield. id give my militia marksman arms and my guards highwayman arms. currently im in a more serious play through, but i might test out 2 armies using only wepsets.

more 'hidden' (or removed) body parts would be a blessing IMHO, i hope you do make magic. thered be much fewer teeth, ears nose ETC to haul. having them hidden for all creatures would make my gameplay better, not too sure about others. im anti hunter, so i send out my noob squad to hunt game from time to time.
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Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.3.1)
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2018, 04:02:40 pm »

Weapon sets are a bit OP on paper, but they require additional ranged training to be used effectively, so there's that: unskilled marksdwaves waste a lot of time reloading and receive attacks while doing so. Also, AI armies treat weapon sets as ranged weapons and, thus, equip their users in light armor with no shield, so removing standalone melee weapons is not a very good idea. In the next version, as a small countermeasure, the metal cost of all weapon sets will be increased by one bar, so setting up all-purpose squads will be even more expensive (it is already more expensive than setting up melee squads). In the end, their efficiency is highly dependent on how much metal the player has on their hands and how serious the invaders are. Both of these variables are within the player's control (worldgen mineral setting and using my recommended natural skills for invaders), for those who prefer more challenge. Obviously, for the forts with nigh-endless supply of iron, it's easy to go for the best equipment right away, but I guess that's how it should be. This too will be somewhat counterbalanced by the next version, as new types of steel will beef up some invaders and motivate the player to actually go for steel.

I will probably set up a poll regarding "internalizing" facial features, once I get to that, and see what the general consensus is.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 04:20:04 pm by Sver »
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peasant cretin

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.2.1)
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2018, 05:14:03 pm »

Thank you :)
* Ranged weapons and ammo. My mod has more variety and functional distinction for ranged weapons: there is a steady progression of power and material cost (and/or min body size limit). My ammo is a lot lighter and shoot velocities are lower, thus, archers in my mod are not as slow, but not as deadly either. Also, in my mod it is possible to have archers with offhand weapons (so called "weapon sets"), so it's entirely possible to train squads that both fight and shoot just as good, and out-of-ammo invaders retain some level of danger.

Curious about this. The tick counts for "reload"/delay after firing change if we manipulate SHOOT_FORCE and/or SHOOT_MAXVEL?

I've never seen anyone mention this before :o If this is so, that's quite a find!

Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.3.1)
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2018, 05:23:43 pm »

No, it doesn't. By "slow" I simply meant the move speed, unfortunately. Much lighter ammo equals much lower encumbrance. Sorry if I was unclear there.
There is no way to alter the reload speed/delay using the raws, as far as I am aware.
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The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.3.1)
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2018, 01:07:33 pm »

v1.4 Released

Notice: I've decided to post an update before the inevitable armor rework that is coming with the next release of DF Revised and its body changes. "Internalized" facial features (to reduce bodypart clutter) will also arive with it.
The most important change here is the weapon speed rebalance, and I would really like to get some feedback on it before progressing further. Testing this new system on both modded and purely vanilla set ups showed no problems in arena mode, but any actual gameplay reports and personal opinions will be appreciated.

Major changes:
* Weapon speed rebalance!
Spoiler: Details (click to show/hide)
* Ranged weapons rebalance! Nothing to be too excited about yet, but the framework for future updates is created: bows are best suited for iron/steel ammo, crossbows gain power as the ammo weight rises, while slings and atlatls are kinda all over the place (but less op than they were). Also, armor-piercing capabilities of ammo were seriously nerfed.
* New types of steel! Idea credit to Jazzpirat!.
Spoiler: Details (click to show/hide)
New steels are optional, but recommended and, thus, included by default. If you don't like this feature, you can simply delete all the =SVER_STEELS= marked lines from your entity_default.txt.
* Stone weapons for subterranean tribes! Well, not really stone, but made with a workaround as "fake" metals. Flint, obsidian and malachite weapons have replaced the wood ones for subterranean animal peoples, so as to make them a bit more capable in combat. Their arsenal was also expanded to include some axes.
This is optional, but recommended and, thus, included by default. If you don't like this feature, you can simply delete all the =SVER_ROCKWEAPONS= marked lines from your entity_default.txt and add back the [WOOD_WEAPONS] tag.
* Legwear rework, to account for the Bug 10784. "Belt" is now legwear instead of bodywear and can be made of cloth. All non-metal pants were removed from my entity lists; skirts were left as they were, but you can remove them, if you want. "Shirt" and "warm coat" have been replaced in my entity lists by the new "clothes" and "warm clothes" bodywear types. "Padded armor" now also covers legs. No items were deleted (aside from the bodywear belt), so you can still get artifact thongs sometimes.
* Added new weapons: dagger-axe and parrying dagger. The former is a pole weapon (pike) best used against weak armor and humanoid limbs. The latter is mostly for adventurers - an offhand weapon very well suited for multi-attacks.
* Added a new elven weapon: enchanted lance. It uses the pikeman skill and is essentially a pike on steroids.
* Added new types of ammo: ballista balls and sling boulders. Similar to each other, these are heavy projectiles, which mostly deliver blunt trauma or shallow abrasions.
* Removed the broad spear all together, as the stabbing attack changes made it obsolete. "Boar spear" optional tool now resembles short spear.
* Stakesman arms now use maul instead of mallet.
* Increased the material requirement for all weapon sets by exactly one bar (except for the dagger ones). It's a balancing measure to make the all-capable troops a bit more expensive to set up. From roleplaying perspective, it's for the weapon-holding equipment. You can still make them from one piece of wood, if needed.
* Readjusted the weight of all bolts, arrows and sling bullets for more realistic values. Arrows are now heavier than bolts, except for the hammerhead.
* Readjusted the area and penetration of most 'stab' and 'thrust' attacks to account for the new 'jab' attack. All areas are now capped at 17 to prevent limbs from being cut off by stabs; arming sword and bladed spear are exempted to make them more distinct, but are still capped at 20. 'Thrust' velocities are now equivalent to 'stab', but the penetration is still deeper; weapons with no extra penetration got this attack removed (except some specials). Stabs now also have lower velocity to make them less armor-piercing. Stabbing area cap credit to Grimlocke.
* Removed 'loosely bash' attacks from war hammer and morningstar, as these weapons turned out to be fairly balanced as is.
* Applied an additional 1.5x modifier to all 'club' attack (maces) velocities. Same for all of the maul and scourge attacks.
* Reworked the (elven) club and war club. They are now more similar in terms of weight and velocity, but the war club is better at destroying armor.
* Decreased the contact areas of maul, mallet, mace and flanged mace.
* Readjusted the contact areas of morningstar - a bit worse than war hammer now. Also, increased the main velocities, minimum size and two-handed limit.
* Seriously decreased the 'slash' penetration for scimitar and war cleaver. Now they are all about swift shallow cuts rather than just being weird variations of regular swords. They are also slightly better at cutting through weak armor now.
* Tassets are no longer [SHAPED] and the layer type has been changed to COVER. They can now be worn over a lower plate for additional protection.
* Removed shin guards from all entity lists. Due to a bug, AI has issues with wearing two pairs of footwear at once, which renders this item useless.
* Removed visors from all entity lists. Too often they were worn without a helmet.
* Renamed 'bullets' to 'sling bullets' and changed the tag accordingly.
* Renamed 'large arrows' to 'ballista bolts' and changed the tag accordingly.
* Renamed 'executioner sword' to 'great cleaver' and changed the tag accordingly.
* Changed the tag for war cleaver to fit its name.

Minor changes:
** Sane melting and heatdam points for fat by thefriendlyhacker. Less melting, more burning.
** Made teeth (TOOTH_TEMPLATE) edible/stealable by vermin, so they will gradually disappear from both the ground and the stockpiles now. Idea credit to OldGenesis.
** New type of clothing: surcoat. A COVER-layer, tunic-like bodywear, just for fun.
** Set all adjectives for elven melee weapons to 'enchanted' to justify why they are so overpowered if made into metal artifacts.
** More "gamey" material cost distribution. Increased cost: hand ballista - 12 bars (still can be made of wood though); arbalest - 5 bars; poleaxe, polehammer - 4 bars; hawk axe, headhunting axe, war hammer, flail, crossbow - 3 bars; bearded axe - 2 bars. Decreased cost: greatsword - 4 bars; two-handed sword, falx, longsword, estoc - 3 bars; arming sword, scimitar, great cleaver - 2 bars; maul, war cleaver - 1 bar.
** Decreased smelting returns for hatchet, mace, mallet, spear, bow and longbow.
** Increased the two-handed limits: glaive - 105000; headhunting axe, war hammer - 60000 (smaller dwarves will need both hands).
** Increased the layer permit of doublet to that of other padded armors.
** Simplified the goblin clothing (in entity_default.txt and my preset) to lower the amount of post-siege clutter. Idea credit to Essential DF.
** Equivalents of vanilla items (which are using their tags; e.g. not my new stuff) were highlighted by =VANILLA= in their respective raws and in the full list of items.txt, for easier search by those players/modders who don't want to use new items.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 01:31:53 pm by Sver »
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The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.3.1)
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2018, 01:31:24 pm »

A new poll is up.
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Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.4)
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2018, 12:32:19 pm »

A question for those who have played with this mod on game version 0.44.10 or later:

How deadly do you find tanrums, tavern brawls and the like? Do you think they are less deadly than in vanilla or the opposite?
I would really like to know whether my material and tissue changes alleviate the deadliness of the new stress system or actually make it worse.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:37:50 pm by Sver »
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HumanScholar

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.4)
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2018, 04:30:53 pm »

This is a cool mod; thanks for all your work! I'm giving it a try and I have a couple of questions:

1. My hunters have equipped various weapon sets, and they go out and hunt for a while, but eventually on one of their trips back to get ammo they seem to fall into a bugged loop. They stand on top of the ammo they want and switch between "No Job" and "Pickup Equipment" extremely quickly, never picking anything up. It's not in a bin, and it's definitely the appropriate ammo type. Does this sound familiar? I'm playing on top of Meph's tileset/launcher, which I think does some light modding in the background, but I was pretty careful about copying in this mod's changes.

2. I'm overwhelmed by the weapon options! Could you suggest a couple of weapon sets/melee weapons for general purposes?
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Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.4)
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2018, 06:36:26 pm »

1. My hunters have equipped various weapon sets, and they go out and hunt for a while, but eventually on one of their trips back to get ammo they seem to fall into a bugged loop. They stand on top of the ammo they want and switch between "No Job" and "Pickup Equipment" extremely quickly, never picking anything up. It's not in a bin, and it's definitely the appropriate ammo type. Does this sound familiar? I'm playing on top of Meph's tileset/launcher, which I think does some light modding in the background, but I was pretty careful about copying in this mod's changes.

Have not run into this problem personally, so I'll need some time to investigate. Could you provide a save via DFFD? It would also help if you give the "troublemakers" an indicative nickname in advance. I suspect it might have something to do with the type of weapon set they are using.
Also, is this a single case or did this happen several times already? Do they ever get out of this loop?

2. I'm overwhelmed by the weapon options! Could you suggest a couple of weapon sets/melee weapons for general purposes?

It really depends on your playstyle and the availability of iron/flux on your map. As a general guideline:
1) If you have enough steel, you can go straight for hawk axes (each costs 3 bars). Unless you go to war with humans or have to fight a lot of giant beasts, it is a very effective weapon. And it is one-handed. It would still be good to have some pikes (1 bar each) and/or falxes (3 bars each) to fight off giant beasts, but take note that those cannot be used with a shield; the main difference between the two is that the falx can chop off limbs, but the pike is way faster.
2) If you do go to war with humans, you better make some tempered steel polehammers and/or poleaxes (both are 4 bars each) and give it to your best-armored soldiers; poleaxes are more versatile, but a tempered steel polehammer leaves little chance to any average-sized creature, no matter the armor. Neither of the two can be used with a shield though. Tempered steel war hammers (3 bars each) might do as a one-handed alternative, but they will be noticeably weaker.
3) If you don't have an easy access to steel, then it's best to have mixed weapon squads:
For anti-armor weapons, morningstars (2 bars each), polehammers and war hammers perform well no matter what material is used. Pick one. The former two are two-handed, but pack a stronger punch.
For something more bloody, use short spears (1 bar each), short swords (2 bars each) or battle axes (1 bar each) - and that's where you better put your iron, if you have any. Pick one or two, depending on your personal preference - although, talking legendary weapon skills, swords definitely win out with their versatility.
Pikes and falxes are once again your trusty friends against huge beasts, but if you are really short on metal, consider using horned axes (2 bars each) - those are decent against beasts and humanoids alike, but are not as exhausting to use as pikes (super-fast weapon is a double-edged sword, metaphorically) and are cheaper than falxes.
4) If you have a very small military, I would advice to stick to weapon-and-shield combos. Having a shielded squad and a two-handed squad is viable, though, if you got good armor.
5) If you have a large, well-armored military, halberds (4 bars each) and pikes are a nice and lazy way to mass-equip it. Aside from the human war occassion above, these two types of weapons will take care of most situations. It would still be good to keep a shielded squad or two on hand for dragons and such; short spear is a good choice of weapon for those.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 07:44:57 pm by Sver »
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The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

HumanScholar

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.4)
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2018, 01:07:11 am »

That's a great rundown, thank you! For weapons of a broad type (like 1H axes), does increasing expense indicate a series of better, higher-tier weapons that should always be preferred, or are there still subtleties in use cases? For example, should a Battle Axe or a Hatchet (both 1) always be ignored if a Hawk Axe or Headhunting Axe are within reach? ...Although as I write this, I realize I don't know the distinction between axes of the same expense anyway. I will go with your recommendations and learn as I go along!

Let me look at uploading that save. Would you need the Meph launcher/packaging as part of one big zip, or do you think the save folder itself is enough? (I don't know how much data gets duplicated into the saves.)

The problem with picking up ammo seemed to happen eventually with most or all of my hunters. They didn't get out of the loop as far as I saw, but maybe I didn't give them long enough before removing their ambush labor and appointing a new hunter.

Edit: I've got one guy in a permanent loop: he goes to "Pickup equipment," stands on top of the ammo stack flickering back and forth to "No job," eventually gives up and wanders a dozen tiles away, and then starts all over again.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 02:12:26 am by HumanScholar »
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thefriendlyhacker

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.4)
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2018, 02:15:47 am »

...
Edit: I've got one guy in a permanent loop: he goes to "Pickup equipment," stands on top of the ammo stack flickering back and forth to "No job," eventually gives up and wanders a dozen tiles away, and then starts all over again.
Just out of curiosity, what sort of weapon is he carrying (and what sort of ammo does it use)?  Also, what sort(s) of ammo (if any) are already in his quiver?
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reducer

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.4)
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2018, 06:23:48 am »

My dwarf civ is unable to create greaves - is this intended? I believe it's due to this mod, but I'm not certain.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 06:40:25 am by reducer »
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Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.4)
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2018, 06:54:13 am »

Let me look at uploading that save. Would you need the Meph launcher/packaging as part of one big zip, or do you think the save folder itself is enough? (I don't know how much data gets duplicated into the saves.)

The save folder itself should be enough. One more thing I need to know: what version of the game you're using?

As a temporary measure, I would recommend you disable all your hunters and wait until they stockpile their equipment. Then make sure that only one type of ranged weapon and ammo is available to them (using the forbid): as in, only crossbow- and arbalest-based sets, plus any type of bolts (except for 'ballista bolts' - those won't do). Then enable hunting back again and see if it's gonna work. Just make sure to keep the rest of the stuff forbidden and don't forget to report the results, please =)

For weapons of a broad type (like 1H axes), does increasing expense indicate a series of better, higher-tier weapons that should always be preferred, or are there still subtleties in use cases? For example, should a Battle Axe or a Hatchet (both 1) always be ignored if a Hawk Axe or Headhunting Axe are within reach? ...Although as I write this, I realize I don't know the distinction between axes of the same expense anyway.

Yes, exactly so. If you have enough Hawk Axes and/or Headhunting Axes at hand, then you don't really need lower-grade axes. The difference between the two in question is that the Headhunting one is somewhat better (Hawk is more realiable vs armor though), but a dwarf needs to be of an average size (60000) or larger to be able to wield it one-handed. For comparision, strictly two-handed axes can easily compare to both, even though they are cheaper - as a counterbalance for the lack of shield.
Also, a Battle Axe is invariably better than a Hatchet. The purpose of the Hatchet is to be a very light and cheap weapon, doubling as a tool for woodcutters, that is easy to embark with; however, it gives diminished smelting returns.
All-in-all, while I tried to make each weapon as distinct as possible, they still share one thing in common: they kill, one way or another, but always better than the bare fists. So, just have fun and roleplay with different troops.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 07:10:28 am by Sver »
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The force pulls neck, doing nothing! Also, armor matters, weapons are distinct, organs hurt and other stuff.

Sver

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Re: [44.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.4)
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2018, 07:03:04 am »

My dwarf civ is unable to create greaves - is this intended? I believe it's due to this mod, but I'm not certain.

Yes, it is possible. Greaves are footwear in this mod, thus, some civs may pick high boots as their choice of plate footwear instead. If you worry about upper leg protection, use tassets or mail skirts for pants and/or mail coats for bodywear. Or open the entity_default.txt and set all the armors you want to FORCED, like [SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_GREAVES_SVER:FORCED] - this will guarantee they'll be available for crafting; but you'd need to regen the world for this change to take effect. Also, there's the add-recipe script in DFhack, which allows making any items you wish available for crafting even in an existing save.
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