Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

But there's gonna be a better one in the future

0 (0%)

.

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

[Sver]

There is a bit more in play here. To make wooden weapons worthwhile and sensible, the wood used would need to have a fixed density, much beyond that of vanilla wood. So reflecting the variety of natural woods in the new material(s) would be mostly meaningless, as their variety is almost entirely about their densities.

Have vanilla wood realistic density or not? If have, there is no ways to make wood really better, but a way to make realistic - some types of wood was used for tools and weapons due to their big density.

Vanilla wood density is fairly realistic. The problem arises because weapon volumes are balanced towards being made out of a solid hunk of material - so, the volume that results in a reasonable weight for an iron spear would also result in a way too light wooden spear, as DF does not support multi-material weapons. Thus, if I'd want to allow wooden weapons that (1) would not result in weird artifacts, such as 10+ kg iron spears, and (2) would not be as useless as simply making weapons out of vanilla wood, new "fake wood" with higher density and shear properties seems like the best solution.

[Iä! RIAKTOR!]

There is a bit more in play here. To make wooden weapons worthwhile and sensible, the wood used would need to have a fixed density, much beyond that of vanilla wood. So reflecting the variety of natural woods in the new material(s) would be mostly meaningless, as their variety is almost entirely about their densities.

Have vanilla wood realistic density or not? If have, there is no ways to make wood really better, but a way to make realistic - some types of wood was used for tools and weapons due to their big density.

Vanilla wood density is fairly realistic. The problem arises because weapon volumes are balanced towards being made out of a solid hunk of material - so, the volume that results in a reasonable weight for an iron spear would also result in a way too light wooden spear, as DF does not support multi-material weapons. Thus, if I'd want to allow wooden weapons that (1) would not result in weird artifacts, such as 10+ kg iron spears, and (2) would not be as useless as simply making weapons out of vanilla wood, new "fake wood" with higher density and shear properties seems like the best solution.

Fake wood is bad solution, not best. Or you will add 71 new type of fake wood? You may just make shear properties of vanilla wood more realistic (maybe, from fire-hardened wood), but also downgrade training weapons as weapons. Also you may enlarge wood maximum sharpness.

[Sver]

As I said earlier, there's really no point in making the "fake wood" as variable, as that would be 1% flavor, 99% interface clutter. The only differences between wood types in DF is their density, color and temperature properties - the problem with the former I've already covered, and the latter two don't matter for equipment.

How to go about vanilla wood properties is another topic that I'm going to tangle in the future. Right now, it's applicability causes an awful lot of balance problems - I can't make it stronger, as that would make wooden shields and weapon sets too good, and I can't keep it weak, as that keeps wooden ammo and elven weapons fairly useless. Contemporary plan is to remove military uses from basic wood entirely (to prevent AI usage and shield/weapon set exploit), add various wood processing reactions to give elves and subterraneans their own military grade "fake woods", and wood-to-item reactions for the player to create actually decent weapons, ammo, shields and maybe armor out of it. I may account for interesting uniques there, such as fake feather wood for super light wood armor, or fake nether-cap for magma-safe equipment (not sure about this one though, it's not of much use since the wearer still burns).

[Iä! RIAKTOR!]

As I said earlier, there's really no point in making the "fake wood" as variable, as that would be 1% flavor, 99% interface clutter. The only differences between wood types in DF is their density, color and temperature properties - the problem with the former I've already covered, and the latter two don't matter for equipment.

How to go about vanilla wood properties is another topic that I'm going to tangle in the future. Right now, it's applicability causes an awful lot of balance problems - I can't make it stronger, as that would make wooden shields and weapon sets too good, and I can't keep it weak, as that keeps wooden ammo and elven weapons fairly useless. Contemporary plan is to remove military uses from basic wood entirely (to prevent AI usage and shield/weapon set exploit), add various wood processing reactions to give elves and subterraneans their own military grade "fake woods", and wood-to-item reactions for the player to create actually decent weapons, ammo, shields and maybe armor out of it. I may account for interesting uniques there, such as fake feather wood for super light wood armor, or fake nether-cap for magma-safe equipment (not sure about this one though, it's not of much use since the wearer still burns).

What is wrong with wooden shields? In real life the most of shields was wooden or covered by wood. Density of wood solve the problem: why papaya wood is bad for weapons, when dense wood is better. If you make wood just sharper, you not boost nor shields, nor blunt weapons. So you really can upgrade basic wood, especially if you want remove vanilla wooden shields from civs (exclude elves and cavern animal people). This will be simpler for code and for play.

[Sver]

What is wrong with wooden shields? In real life the most of shields was wooden or covered by wood.

They are too cheap for what they can do. In real life shields had to be leather-covered or otherwise reinforced to hold up in combat, and still got damaged fairly frequently. In DF as it stands, that's just 1 log of wood. They do wear out in combat due to shield-bashing, but they also come with the benefit of very low encumbrance compared to metal shields, which overall makes metal shields unattractive as an option. Also, there's literally no reason to make smaller wooden shields, because, again, even the tower shield is very light when made of wood. Shields also have hardcoded trade value attached to their volume, which basically allows the player to turn wood into gold. All of these need to be fixed, but the only way to go about it is to remove the relevant item tags from basic wood. Which would call for creating new "fake wood" to give the elves and cavern people something to make shields out of.

Density of wood solve the problem: why papaya wood is bad for weapons, when dense wood is better.

None of the vanilla woods are dense enough to make for a decent weapon, unless the weapon in question has its volume rebalanced towards being made of wood (e.g. much higher than for metal weapons). There are three reasons why I don't want to add new weapons for it:

1) Weapon tweaking is probably the most labor-intensive part of the mod's development and I really wouldn't want to bloat it more than it already is. To clarify: each time I make some broad tweak to, say, stabbing attacks, each weapon needs to be tweaked into it one by one; 1 additional weapon turns into a miriad of additional steps when updating.

2) Artifacts. Sure, the chance of those exact "wooden" weapons being picked for a metal artifact is pretty low, but I really don't want to have a 10+ kg metal spear, even as just a possibility. Can probably be prevented by marking the weapon as "training", but then onto the third point...

3) Player has little control over which types of wood they have on the map - and, without some serious reaction clutter, as well as strockpile microing, would have little control over which types of logs are actually used in production. This discourages me from going into too much nuance between the wood densities. After all, realistically speaking, materials that are too light for weapons would simply not be used, whilst heavier materials would be made into different shapes and sizes to account for their density. This isn't something that can be easily reflected in DF, which rather encourages streamlining all wood into single product "fake wood" with universally decent properties.

If you make wood just sharper, you not boost nor shields, nor blunt weapons.

This is correct, but the deal is I would like to have functional wooden blunt weapons - for the sake of common sense realism, if nothing else.

Also, this change will affect wooden weapon sets -> which I already plan to make non-available -> which is only possible through the removal of all wooden ranged weapons (hardcoded reactions) -> which promts creating custom "fake wood" for standalone wooden ranged weapons (because they're reasonable to have) -> which means I can use the same fake wood for other new wood-related reactions to reduce clutter and ensure universal balance -> which would allow me to remove/rebalance some elven-specific items, further reducing clutter. It's all tangled together.

[Iä! RIAKTOR!]

What is wrong with wooden shields? In real life the most of shields was wooden or covered by wood.

They are too cheap for what they can do. In real life shields had to be leather-covered or otherwise reinforced to hold up in combat, and still got damaged fairly frequently. In DF as it stands, that's just 1 log of wood. They do wear out in combat due to shield-bashing, but they also come with the benefit of very low encumbrance compared to metal shields, which overall makes metal shields unattractive as an option. Also, there's literally no reason to make smaller wooden shields, because, again, even the tower shield is very light when made of wood. Shields also have hardcoded trade value attached to their volume, which basically allows the player to turn wood into gold. All of these need to be fixed, but the only way to go about it is to remove the relevant item tags from basic wood. Which would call for creating new "fake wood" to give the elves and cavern people something to make shields out of.

Density of wood solve the problem: why papaya wood is bad for weapons, when dense wood is better.

None of the vanilla woods are dense enough to make for a decent weapon, unless the weapon in question has its volume rebalanced towards being made of wood (e.g. much higher than for metal weapons). There are three reasons why I don't want to add new weapons for it:

1) Weapon tweaking is probably the most labor-intensive part of the mod's development and I really wouldn't want to bloat it more than it already is. To clarify: each time I make some broad tweak to, say, stabbing attacks, each weapon needs to be tweaked into it one by one; 1 additional weapon turns into a miriad of additional steps when updating.

2) Artifacts. Sure, the chance of those exact "wooden" weapons being picked for a metal artifact is pretty low, but I really don't want to have a 10+ kg metal spear, even as just a possibility. Can probably be prevented by marking the weapon as "training", but then onto the third point...

3) Player has little control over which types of wood they have on the map - and, without some serious reaction clutter, as well as strockpile microing, would have little control over which types of logs are actually used in production. This discourages me from going into too much nuance between the wood densities. After all, realistically speaking, materials that are too light for weapons would simply not be used, whilst heavier materials would be made into different shapes and sizes to account for their density. This isn't something that can be easily reflected in DF, which rather encourages streamlining all wood into single product "fake wood" with universally decent properties.

If you make wood just sharper, you not boost nor shields, nor blunt weapons.

This is correct, but the deal is I would like to have functional wooden blunt weapons - for the sake of common sense realism, if nothing else.

Also, this change will affect wooden weapon sets -> which I already plan to make non-available -> which is only possible through the removal of all wooden ranged weapons (hardcoded reactions) -> which promts creating custom "fake wood" for standalone wooden ranged weapons (because they're reasonable to have) -> which means I can use the same fake wood for other new wood-related reactions to reduce clutter and ensure universal balance -> which would allow me to remove/rebalance some elven-specific items, further reducing clutter. It's all tangled together.

You try to make mod with balance or with realism? Spear will not be 10 kg, if you boost only speed (why vanilla whip is so deadly).

[Sver]

You try to make mod with balance or with realism?

Main focus is on the balance, some focus on sensibility - not realism per se, as that would be frankly unachievable and/or completely drag away from what vanilla DF setting is. The overall goal is to have things behave as sensible as possible in action, but try to ensure that as much of the equipment and materials has its use and doesn't just exist for the sake of existing.

Spear will not be 10 kg, if you boost only speed (why vanilla whip is so deadly).

I just explained why I wouldn't want to add more weapons, especially with a different formula for velocities that would require individual recalc each time. It's not as simple as applying a constant modifier.

[Iä! RIAKTOR!]

You try to make mod with balance or with realism?

Main focus is on the balance, some focus on sensibility - not realism per se, as that would be frankly unachievable and/or completely drag away from what vanilla DF setting is. The overall goal is to have things behave as sensible as possible in action, but try to ensure that as much of the equipment and materials has its use and doesn't just exist for the sake of existing.

Spear will not be 10 kg, if you boost only speed (why vanilla whip is so deadly).

I just explained why I wouldn't want to add more weapons, especially with a different formula for velocities that would require individual recalc each time. It's not as simple as applying a constant modifier.

If you not want drag away from vanilla setting, you may not boost elven weapons at all or boost wood only a little (to bone-like properties). Prior elven weapon is bow, prior elven melee are war animals.

[Sver]

Prior elven weapon is bow, prior elven melee are war animals.

That is the idea. Right now, though, elven arrows are poorly balanced, because of how contact area works - increasing wood sharpness will allow me to increase that too, ensuring better balance; maybe I could even remove the gimmicky unique elven arrows and give them normal ones instead, that would be great. Also, allow their melee spears to stab through skulls at least so they aren't completely helpless - right now they're better off using their bare fists, which is silly.

[erwin]

Hi, I'm trying out your mod. Is there an overview over the metals? How to create rusty metal helm?

I have hematite that yields bloomery iron. Then in the smelter I can do collect scrap metal that yields rusty iron bars. I have 6 rusted iron bars. I though that I can forge rusted metal helm. But I can't. It says "Needs 6 rusted metal bars".

[Sver]

Hello! Here's an overview over the metals. I assume you are playing Full Edition, so the "Optional part" in that post applies too.

I'm afraid rusty iron cannot be used for armor - it's only purpose are crappy, yet relatively cheap weapons and ammunition. Also, civilian stuff, like furniture.

'forge rusted metal helm' and similar reactions require rusted metal - which is a type of divine metal in vanilla DF.

If you want to make some cheap protection, make wooden tower shields and plant/wool cloth armors. Here's an example uniform:

   1x one-handed weapon of your choosing
   1x wood tower shield
   1x padded armor
   2x doublet
   2x gambeson
   1x padded chausses
   1x belt (any material, although iron is preferable)
   5x padded coif (can be replaced by 1x padded coif + 1x iron/bronze skullcap)

[NordicNooob]

Hey, so, suggestion: make wax obtainable from a more ubiquitous method, perhaps either through fat somehow (maybe not recommended since grease can come from fat) or, if you want to make them a bit more useful, dimple cups. That, or exploit some cavern resource: perhaps a specific type of cavern shroom could have a waxy "bark", thus making their logs a good source of wax?

Currently wax is sometimes unobtainable: even if you just do a simple glacier or mountainous embark your only source of wax would be traded bayberries, which isn't a reliable source: trade can be cut off pretty easily. You can't raise bees or grow aboveground crops there. You could argue that flux is sometimes the same way: it's not on every embark. However, flux can still spawn in every environment-it's entirely your choice if you want flux or not, since it's independent of biome. But with wax, you can't just say "hey, how about I go for a glacier, but take it easy and go for metal-rich so I can get a lot of steel."

Of course, it's still up to you, and I can't say it's a huge issue because of the rarity of glacier embarks and the impossibility of full-mountain embarks, as well as trade with something being almost ubiquitous. Also, you do allow steel goblinite, so.

[Sver]

The original idea with wax being required for tempered steel was adding a motivation to use beekeeping (it's absolutely worthless in vanilla, outside of pure roleplay) and maintaining some sort of "soft cap" on steel production since flux is no longer a requirement. Bees and flux are alike enough in that part, because bees are pretty widespread, unless the player specifically goes for a challenge embark such as a glacier. Also, steel in the Full Edition is not such a massive milestone as in vanilla - it's good, don't get me wrong, but iron does the job most of the time, and bronze is almost exactly as good, even if more cumbersome; since none of the metals can cut through each other anymore, having no steel is not that big of a deal. In a way, steel is too good to be made easily accessible, I think, because it has no drawbacks compared to iron/bronze, being very sharp and relatively light, while also resistant to all but the strongest of anti-armor weapons.

However, the idea of adding some deep cavern shroom (or better yet, a reaction that utilizes an existing one; blood thorn seems like a good candidate, being present regardless of water) to motivate the player to go there for that sweet wax is enticing, so I'll consider this 

[NordicNooob]

Aye, that's all reasonable, I like having the incentive to use bees, beekeeping seems cool. Bayberries are rather widespread and exist basically anywhere with trees, too. I didn't consider that the metal hiearchy was that altered, though yeah, in hindsight I did read that metal-on-metal is still generally pretty tough to penetrate regardless of material (unless using the proper tools for the job), as it should be. Besides, there's always candy if you need a good metal. Speaking of which, is candy less powerful than in vanilla, or still rather strong? I didn't see much about it, other than it hasn't changed much. I'd imagine it's fine if it's still quite powerful, since stuff now takes an absurd amount of wafers to forge; only your best soldiers should get it rather than "oh hey, candy, lemme equip my entire army with it."

[Sver]

Candy is exactly as good as it is in vanilla - still the lightest, sharpest and strongest, still the same process of obtaining and working it. On the subject of wafers, I'm actually on the fence about rebranding candy into regular-style ore for Full Edition, because the bar-wafer conversion rate likely results in some nigh-unreachable quantities of candy required for any decent equipment. Granted, there are also divine metals, which are basically halfway candy, and obtaining them (through vault raiding) does not present a direct threat to the fort's survival, even though it may cost lives.