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Author Topic: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)  (Read 90970 times)

Vulpes_Inculta

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #225 on: April 26, 2020, 12:44:44 pm »

Alright, this time I did quite a run into your mod.

And I have to say, undead are broken.

This time it was 3 years into the game and near 100 fort population.

Large militia of 35 dwarves, all are reasonably experienced and well equipped - multiple layers of padded-leather-bone armor, 4 to 7 point skills, one hammerer veteran of skill 9, and most importantly - everyone is equipped with steel (hammers/maces were bronze) weapons of mostly exceptional/masterwork quality: half the men with spears, the other half - axes, maces, hammers and one swordsman. 5 marksdwarves.

Then one winter the undead siege comes. And look - it is only 2 enemies, a duo of elite human crossbowman doomed ghouls. Alright, I think, they are probably strong, but my boys are well trained and well armed, I can handle this.

Then the massacre ensues. Those doomed ghouls were disarmed pretty quickly, before any casualties on my side, but then they proceeded to slaughter my militia.. with foot kicks.. They were literally just jumping around kicking and jamming hearts through ribs, slowly but steadily. Absolutely no wound could stop them - broken legs, smashed arms, even fractured spines and neck cloven asunder - nope, they just went on and beat everyone 2 vs 35.

My guess is that it's a combination of vanilla buff to undead with the changes in your mod that strengthened them even further.

Now, I like the scarcity of metals you introduced, the variety of weapons, archer sidearms - great idea. I can't play vanilla after this, but the undead seem to be utterly unbeatable. No major mistakes were made on my part, I was well prepared, yet my steel armed militia was utterly deleted by 2 human sized entities that wouldn't go down no matter the damage done to them.

I don't know. Are these enemies unkillable and supposed to be cheesed out with traps and the like? If that's so then it's no fun at all.

Seriously, I enjoy hardcore challenge, I accept taking losses, I love the dramatic effect of it all, but being deleted in an unfair way is very disappointing.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 01:01:47 pm by Vulpes_Inculta »
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #226 on: April 26, 2020, 01:00:51 pm »

Hmm. As far as I am aware, there's nothing particularly extreme in the mod that should result in the undead being much stronger than vanilla. Sure, they got stronger skulls and higher skills, but that is all.

I'd appreciate if you could provide a save file before (if you got backups) and/or after the attack so I could see what the source of the problem might be.

Edit: Also, a couple of clarifications:

- Which edition of the mod you're playing?

- Were the doomed ghouls armored? How well? Especially in regards to head protection.

- Were your guys carrying shields?

UPD: I've run a couple of manual-control tests one the arena. In some cases a steel battle axe can one-shot a unique undead by a single hack to the upper body. So they themselves are likely not that hardcore, rather, it is possible those two guys had very good armor, which would require specific heavy-armor-breaking weapons - halberd, scourge, poleaxe or polehammer, preferably polehammer. Lesser anti-armor weapons, such as maces, won't do, because undead don't bleed or breath - they don't care if you break their necks. Maul may also have enough punch to crush their upper body, as long as they aren't wearing a cuirass/breastplate.

UPD-2: A couple more tests, this time with AI. Unique undead seriously pick up in power if they outskill their living opponents. However, living beings who are just as skilled and have a bit of numbers advantage defeat them with minimal casualities. The general conclusion I could draw is that unique undead are boss-level enemies that are not to be taken lightly, but they got nothing on say, clowns, or similar high-level foes. Their main power comes from arriving way too early, which isn't something that can really be fixed, other than by avoiding tower embarks or turtling until you're ready to face them.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 01:55:40 pm by Sver »
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Vulpes_Inculta

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #227 on: April 26, 2020, 01:55:26 pm »

Okay, I quit the game without saving and tried again, my autosave was basically 1 day before the attack.

Identical result, everyone is dead.

Yes, these ghouls are wearing steel armor, half plates, boots and some sort of a helmet. My guys are carrying large shields except archers, which are carrying medium ones. But this last time I checked ghoul's wounds - they had fractured skulls, spines and even "fractured brain", yet they they didn't go down.

As for counters they require, come on, that's not dragons or some legendary beasts, it's just human sized undead, the ghouls, a sheer "volume of fire" coming their way and numerical superiority 35 vs 2, brain wounds, spine wounds, this stuff need to be able to take them down. Otherwise this strict rock-paper-scissors kind of thing is simply no fun for this pretty regular type of enemy.

I prepared 2 saves, before and after, how may I provide them?



UPD: Well, if they are supposed to be boss level enemies, yeah. But they just didnt look like that and indeed arrived early. In my first attempt to recreate the situation I set up an ambush in the halls of my fortress where I thought I could fall on them from all sides, lock them down in some corner and prevent them from "kiting" my dwarves in the open. But they just didnt come in lol. After slaughtering my livestock outside they left the map.

Guess I'll continue the game with this kind of conclusion to the encounter, as starting over after the end that unsatisfying is beyond me. Let's hope that furter into the game a veteran army with better anti-blunt armor and some anti armor 2 handers will be able to take such foes down.

P.S. As for the version of the mod I am using, it's your pre-installed version over LNP with no other mods besides my personal tweaks to human caravan arrival and loamy sand being treated as sand.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:13:41 pm by Vulpes_Inculta »
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #228 on: April 26, 2020, 02:17:22 pm »

Yes, this ghouls are wearing steel armor, half plates, boots and some sort of a helmet. But this last time I checked their wounds - they had fractured skulls, spines and even "fractured brain", yet they they didn't go down.

The undead don't need a functioning brain either, they can only be disabled by crushing/cleaving asunder of their head or upper body.
Anyhow, they sound quite well armored, so anti-steel weapons are a must.

As for counters they require, come on, that's not dragons or some legendary beasts, it's just human sized undead, the ghouls, a sheer "volume of fire" coming their way and numerical superiority 35 vs 2, brain wounds, spine wounds, this stuff need to be able to take them down. Otherwise this strict rock-paper-scissors kind of thing is simply no fun for this pretty regular type of enemy.

Well, it's DF. The undead here don't need a working spinal cord or, again, even a brain - just their head and upper body needs to remain somewhat intact for them to carry on. This isn't my design decision, though - it's the same way in vanilla. When you get this kind of being in plate armor, you effectively get animated armor, immune to most normal vulnerabilities that could counter a living armor wearer, such as tiredness or stun. It might not be a dragon in terms of pure firepower, but it is sure several times stronger in durability - dragons being creatures of blood and flesh and not a moving hunk of hard steel. It's kind of like trying to take down that liquid bot from Terminator with medieval weapons - you gotta cut/smash the core hunk away to achieve that. And on top of that, Toady gave them magic spells.

I agree that they probably shouldn't be as common as they are, but this isn't the part I can change unfortunately.

I prepared 2 saves, before and after, how may I provide them?

Best way is as a DFFD upload. In the Miscellaneous category.

UPD: In general, I'd say there are a lot of situations in DF, with my mod in particular, where a large number of average troops is not enough to take down a supernatural threat. You'll need to have very well trained warriors with specific equipment fit for the job.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:25:53 pm by Sver »
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Vulpes_Inculta

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #229 on: April 26, 2020, 02:35:04 pm »

Yeah the last time I played Dward Fortress was like a 1.5 years ago, without any mods, and I remember fighting such undead, they were wearing copper armor so dwarves could eventually break through it and smash their skulls or cut off their heads and kill them.

What you are saying does makes sense and I'll jsut treat this Doomed Ghouls as hardcore boss level foe and move on with that. The initial shock and frustration were just too strong. I also wouldn't want to avoid towers, I want all kind of threats and enemies to be present in my game. So anyways, not sure if the saves are needed anymore, now that we clarified the situation.

I'll keep playing your mod and then share some more of the experiences here if that's not too annoying.

Really liking many aspects of it so far, and can imagine all the hard work you've done and probably hundreds of hours investested in all the thinking over and balancing and all.

One very minor thing that doesn't go off my mind tho. I get it's a balancing feature, but still, how do pieces of body armor, such as pauldrons or doublets, protect your eyes? Do they come with a pair of armored glasses or something? :D
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:38:43 pm by Vulpes_Inculta »
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #230 on: April 26, 2020, 03:02:15 pm »

Yeah the last time I played Dward Fortress was like a 1.5 years ago, without any mods, and I remember fighting such undead, they were wearing copper armor so dwarves could eventually break through it and smash their skulls or cut off their heads and kill them.

See, those were regular undead you remember, the kind that nowadays gets knocked out by stone-bound books wielded by some warrior poets. Regular undead aren't as tough, they lack skills and are also very slow.
Latest DF (aka Villains Update) just added... these things, and I've noticed around the forum that a lot of players struggle with them even in vanilla. The mod's balance and "sensible degree realism" admittedly makes them even more hardcore.

So anyways, not sure if the saves are needed anymore, now that we clarified the situation.

Yeah, I guess we can skip the bother. Since you've mentioned their armor, I can fairly safely assume that they wore "steel half-armor", "steel high boots" and a "steel open helm" - which is pretty much the best armor a ranged invader can arrive with in the mod. Your dwarves just really got a 52-bars run of bad luck. On the positive note (or not), these unique undead are "historical figures", which means they will likely return in the future sieges to receive your vengeance.

I'll keep playing your mod and then share some more of the experiences here if that's not too annoying.

Sure, I'm all in favor of feedback, whatever it might be. I can get a little carried away when talking the mod's "philosophy" (and my vocabulary can be overly mechanical), but I didn't mean to sound aggressive, if anything  :)

One very minor thing that doesn't go off my mind tho. I get it's a balancing feature, but still, how do pieces of body armor, such as pauldrons or doublet, protect your eyes? Do they come with a pair of armored glasses or something? :D

That is a gimmick of DF's armoring system - body armor/clothing with sleeves somehow covers facial features, while helmets do not. In the mod, all facial features other than eyes got tweaked to be integral to the head (rather than "growing" on it), which makes them properly covered by helmets instead; the eyes got a pass by popular vote, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to gouge them in Adventure Mode. I've decided to embrace it and made certain metal garments extend just enough to "cover" eyes by design - I personally picture it as a wearer covering their face from an attack by their arm, but depending on the rest of the armor kit this can be interpreted as a visor or, well, armored goggles  :P
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 03:38:47 pm by Sver »
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #231 on: April 26, 2020, 03:45:45 pm »

Anyway, if these exact guys will keep reappearing, your best bet are well-trained, polehammer-wielding troops supported by some axe or mace wielding troops with wooden tower shields. Engage with the shield wielders first, then follow with the polehammers. If you don't have more dwarves to add into military, retrain your speardwarves - they are the least useful against the undead as is, and you can always equip them with spears again when needed. Also, yeah, blunt-resistant torso armor would really help, but that's really long term with how much it costs; although, you might be able to purchase some from caravans, or the required amount of metal in smeltables, at least for your polehammer troops.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 03:58:03 pm by Sver »
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Uthimienure

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #232 on: April 26, 2020, 04:38:58 pm »

Out of curiosity, would this be as horrifying an experience if it happened using only your Vanilla+ mod?
My fort is approaching 2 years with no sieges yet, and my 25 military dwarfs will all have steel mail soon, with skills of 3-5. migrants showed up with mostly shortsword or spear skilled, there are a couple of maces & axes, and only one hammer (all high-quality steel weapons thanks to a legendary weaponsmith). There's no tower nearby, but Vulpes_Inculta's experience is still scaring me!
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #233 on: April 26, 2020, 04:48:35 pm »

Probably not as horrifying, because Vanilla+ uses only the vanilla metals, with their linear balance, meaning you'll almost never encounter enemies with armor that could resist a good enough steel cutter. Also, there's no invader skill boost like in Full Edition, so they should be generally less lethal.
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Iš! RIAKTOR!

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #234 on: April 26, 2020, 10:29:38 pm »

When will be update?
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Vulpes_Inculta

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #235 on: April 27, 2020, 04:59:38 am »

By the gods. What happened is crazy.

So I decided to act as a dirty cheater this one time, making myself an excuse that I was not aware of the fact a small human sized opponent can be that deadly. So I reloaded an autosave and confronted the Ghouls once again. This time I decided to wall in inside my fortress and see if I can wait out this siege.

But before I managed to build a door at my main entrance, one of the CREATURES slipped inside while I wasnt looking.

I mobilized my troops in an instant and we jumped it from all sides, fighting for the very survival of the fortress in it's glorious halls.

I was lucky the other THING has fallen behind hunting some eagles and flies and never participated in the battle. But even this one Ghoul, dammit...

It started dancing around like it did before in the open, but this time it couldn't maneuver so freely and eventually we managed to corner it.

Before that happened though the monster slipped into the tavern and there my brave civilians joined the onslaught.

In the end, the monster fell by a mighty strike of the RUSTY PICK in the head, delievered by one of my brave miners who was all broken and wounded and struck down the creature focusing all the hatred and rage into that blow. A lucky strike at the gap in the helmet after we literally locked it down in the corner by the mass of dwarf bodies.

The end of the day painted me a pretty grim picture. 5 soldiers and 3 civilians are dead,including a valuable clothier and a legendary bone carver. Literally half the population is wounded, my hospital is overwflowing and Im suddenly running low on crutches and splints. My only doctor is down and the survivors, untrained in the art of medicine, are dressing wounds and setting bones en masse. And the monster killed several puppies and both of my cats! Thankfully we've managed to protect the dwarven children, none of which suffered that day.

Grim, but not hopeless. Many may yet die in the hospital, but the dwarves will endure. Thankfully, the other CREATURE never joined it's foul companion and eventually left the map. We will lick our wounds, bury our dead, strengthen our walls and next time we'll be ready for this monsters.

Now looking at the contents of what the creature carried, I see it was not only dressed in steel armor but that armor was all of superiour and exceptional quality. At least it's chestpiece appears to be heavily damaged so it wasn't virtually indestructible as I first thought. Also, that's a lot of steel equipment for us to melt.

But seriously, this things are like White Walker level of threat. Now at least I am fully aware. This was trully a boss fight.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 05:11:48 am by Vulpes_Inculta »
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #236 on: April 27, 2020, 08:35:32 am »

When will be update?

In quite a while, I think. I'll be taking a break, collect more ideas, see how what's already there is working.

In the end, the monster fell by a mighty strike of the RUSTY PICK in the head, delievered by one of my brave miners who was all broken and wounded and struck down the creature focusing all the hatred and rage into that blow. A lucky strike at the gap in the helmet after we literally locked it down in the corner by the mass of dwarf bodies.

Yeah, their helmets are open on the face, it's just really hard to score a hit in the opening.

Now looking at the contents of what the creature carried, I see it was not only dressed in steel armor but that armor was all of superiour and exceptional quality. At least it's chestpiece appears to be heavily damaged so it wasn't virtually indestructible as I first thought. Also, that's a lot of steel equipment for us to melt.

I think maces and war hammers apply damage to steel armor on a prone opponent, just nowhere near quick enough to gain the upper hand in fighting. Case in point, it's still intact after all that pounding.

That was one hell of an epic take down  :D
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 08:37:05 am by Sver »
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Vulpes_Inculta

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #237 on: April 27, 2020, 09:05:10 am »

Yeah we should now officially call ourselves Bastion of Cripple, cause everyone is walking on crutches.

I am now using all the steel salvaged from the monster to forge some glorious polehammers and give my boys (and girls) an edge in the future encounters of such kind.

Which also brings up a question I wanna ask. Could you please clarify which two handed weapons do NOT use pikeman skill? Cause I see a rookie whom I gave a bearded axe is training an axedwarf skill and he's certainly not huge enouhg to use it one handed.
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Sver

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #238 on: April 27, 2020, 09:16:43 am »

Which also brings up a question I wanna ask. Could you please clarify which two handed weapons do NOT use pikeman skill? Cause I see a rookie whom I gave a bearded axe is training an axedwarf skill and he's certainly not huge enouhg to use it one handed.
Quote
   Tier 1:
      (p) hatchet - weak, chopping one-handed (high) axe: low pen, light, slow prep, fast rec, damages ie-armor, good vs humanoid limbs, inefficient
      (a) flail - bashing one-handed (avg) lash: no pen bash, 1/4 unlucky, fast prep, slow rec, bad mult, damages and punches through ie-armor (prone), damages br-armor
      (s) spear - average one-handed (high) spear: low pen, narrow, quick, pierces ie-armor, feint, inefficient
      (o) pick - weak one-handed (high) mining tool: low pen, narrow, 1/3 unlucky, slow, worst mult, may pierce ie-armor, inefficient
      (o) whip - cutting one-handed (avg) lash: very low pen, light, fast prep, slow rec, worst mult, damages ie-armor


   Tier 2:
      (a) spiked staff - average two-handed (high) mace-polearm: low pen, no pen bash, narrow, may pierce ie-armor, damages br-armor (prone), may break joints
      (s/p) war knife - weak, cutting one-handed (avg) sword: low pen, quick, bad mult, may pierce ie-armor, decent vs humanoid limbs
      (s) parrying dagger - defensive one-handed (low) dagger: low pen, narrow, light, zero rec, best mult, pierces ie-armor
      (s) short spear - short one-handed (low) spear: average pen, narrow, pierces ie-armor


   Tier 3:
      (p) battle axe - chopping one-handed (avg) axe: low pen, pierces ie-armor (prone), great vs humanoid limbs
      (a) morningstar - piercing two-handed (low) mace: low pen, narrow, slow, may pierce ie-armor, may pierce br-armor (prone), may break joints, efficient
      (b/p) short sword - versatile one-handed (avg) sword: average pen, bad mult, may pierce ie-armor, decent vs humanoid limbs, decent vs beasts
      (s/p) bladed spear - cutting two-handed (avg) spear: low pen, quick, pierces ie-armor, decent vs humanoid limbs, feint


   Tier 4:
      (p/a) hawk axe - piercing one-handed (low) axe: low pen, pierces ie-armor, damages br-armor (prone), great vs humanoid limbs
      (p/b) horned axe - chopping two-handed (high) axe-polearm: average pen, may pierce ie-armor, great vs humanoid limbs, decent vs beasts
      (p) dagger-axe - piercing two-handed (high) axe-polearm: low pen, good mult, pierces ie-armor, great vs humanoid limbs, feint
      (p) scimitar - cutting two-handed (low) sword: low pen, fast rec, bad mult, may pierce ie-armor, good vs humanoid limbs, feint, efficient
      (a/p/s) halberd - versatile two-handed (high) axe-polearm: low pen, heavy, quick, may pierce ie-armor, damages br-armor, damages sr-armor, decent vs humanoid limbs, feint
      (a/s) scourge - bashing two-handed (high) lash: blunt-only, 1/3 unlucky, fast prep, slow rec, worst mult, punches through ie-armor, damages br-armor, damages sr-armor (prone), easily breaks joints
      (a) war hammer - piercing one-handed (high) hammer: low pen, narrow, slow, pierces ie-armor, may pierce br-armor (prone), power-bash (33%), inefficient
      (a) mace - bashing one-handed (low) mace: blunt-only, punches through ie-armor, damages br-armor armor, breaks joints


   Tier 5:
      (p/a) hooked axe - piercing two-handed (low) axe: low pen, slow prep, pierces ie-armor, may pierce br-armor (prone), great vs humanoid limbs, efficient
      (p/s/b) glaive - long, versatile two-handed (high) sword-polearm: average pen, quick, zero rec, best mult, may pierce ie-armor, good vs humanoid limbs, decent vs beasts, feint
      (p) bearded axe - chopping two-handed (high) axe: average pen, may pierce ie-armor, great vs humanoid limbs, broad
      (b) war cleaver - chopping one-handed (avg) sword: average pen, bad mult, damages ie-armor, good vs humanoid limbs, decent vs beasts, broad
      (b/p/s) falx - versatile two-handed (high) sword-polearm: high pen, may pierce ie-armor, good vs humanoid limbs, good vs beasts, feint
      (b/p) two-handed sword - versatile two-handed (high) sword-polearm: high pen, fast rec, may pierce ie-armor, great vs humanoid limbs, good vs beasts
      (s/a) heavy spear - very long two-handed (high) spear: average pen, narrow, very heavy, best speed, best mult, pierces ie-armor, damages br-armor (prone), feint
      (s/b) pike - very long two-handed (high) spear-polearm: very high pen, narrow, pierces ie-armor, feint, pike-whip


   Tier 6:
      (a/p) large dagger - offensive one-handed (high) dagger: low pen, narrow, light, slow, pierces ie-armor, power-thrust (66%), inefficient
      (a) maul - bashing two-handed (high) hammer: blunt-only, very heavy, slow rec, worst mult, punches through ie-armor, damages br-armor (prone), easily breaks joints
      (a) polehammer - strong, piercing two-handed (high) hammer-polearm: low pen, narrow, slow prep, pierces ie-armor, may pierce br-armor (prone), damages sr-armor (prone), power-bash (25%), feint
      (b/p/a) longsword - versatile two-handed (high) sword: high pen, bad mult, may pierce ie-armor, good vs humanoid limbs, good vs beasts, power-thrust (16%), feint, guard-bash


   Tier 7:
      (p/a) poleaxe - strong, versatile two-handed (high) axe-polearm: low pen, slow prep, pierces ie-armor, damages br-armor, damages sr-armor (prone), great vs humanoid limbs, power-bash (25%), feint
      (a/p/b) estoc - stabbing two-handed (high) sword: high pen, narrow, bad mult, pierces ie-armor, may pierce br-armor (prone), power-thrust (33%), feint, guard-bash
      (b/p) greatsword - strong, versatile two-handed (high) sword-polearm: very high pen, very heavy, fast rec, may pierce ie-armor, great vs humanoid limbs, great vs beasts
      (b) great cleaver - strong, chopping two-handed (high) sword: high pen, bad mult, may pierce ie-armor (prone), good vs humanoid limbs, good vs beasts, broad

Two-handed weapons that do use pikeman skill are described as "%type%-polearm" in the list. All other two-handed weapons use their default skill. So non-pikeman 2handers include:
morningstar (mace; large dwarves can use 1h)
bladed spear (spear)
scimitar (sword; large dwarves can use 1h)
scourge (lash)
hooked axe (axe; large dwarves can use 1h)
bearded axe (axe)
heavy spear (spear)
maul (hammer)
longsword (sword)
estoc (sword)
great cleaver (sword)
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Vulpes_Inculta

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Re: [47.xx] Sver's DF Combat Reworked (update v1.7)
« Reply #239 on: April 28, 2020, 04:19:59 am »

Okay, thanks!

Gotta say though, it's kinda imbalanced that everyone and their mother is wearing steel now.

We just had a horde of 90 corpses coming to siege us. We went out and cut through them like chaff with only minor losses on our side. Each and every one of those corpses was "elite" something wearing multiple pieces of steel equipment for some reason.

So now we got all that salvage from them, that's probably like 2000+ bars of steel. Basically, an unlimited supply for the rest of the game and no more " steel scarcity" immersion.

We had a little adventurer incursion just a month earlier, mostly humans and again, everyone is dressed in superior to masterful steel.

Feels kinda weird how hard it is to manufacture for your dwarves but every human and their corpse is wearing and carrying it in abundance.

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« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 04:39:51 am by Vulpes_Inculta »
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