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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released  (Read 32682 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2018, 11:47:04 am »

Anyone getting a lot of "pickup equipment" errors?  Cannot find path, or a dwarf spending months in a "pickup equipment" state.
Do you say it's gotten worse? Equipment in bins is a common offender as the bin may be locked at the time the dorfs decides to pick up the equipment. Picking up a whole set of equipment likewise tends to take a lot of time because dorfs seem to pick up equipment in some order that's not optimized, so a left gauntlet may be picked up by the magma forge, followed by a rush up to the training area where the helmet is, followed to a trek back to the magma forges for the other gauntlet,...
When I tried to train wood cutters by putting them in squads with equipment (and disabling wood cutting) it tended to take about two weeks to pick up everything (I eventually wised up and decided that the only equipment assigned should be an axe).
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Saiko Kila

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2018, 12:06:18 pm »

Regarding the memory issue... In real life, every time a memory in brain is accessed, it is also altered a bit. It's not like in computer, where the memory read is not connected to memory refresh. Over time, especially the bad memories are so changed they are falsified totally. Not always for better, but it's a mechanism to cope with bad memories (and also a reason a witness institution is basically worthless in judicial systems, and lie detection is almost worthless too).

Dwarves, supposedly being more badass that humans, should be able to cope better with old memories, I think.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2018, 03:42:17 pm »

Dwarves, supposedly being more badass that humans, should be able to cope better with old memories, I think.
Which dwarves? Besides bigger livers, is there anything to indicate dwarves are more "badass" than humans?

Humans are the ambitious, slave owning expansionists, leading their armies to take over the world. Dwarves are bearded fellas, who prefer to live in holes and not get involved.

But, yeah, exactly as explained by Toady, dividing memories by life stage should help dwarves cope in the long run (while the more impactful events shape their personalities and dreams).
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2018, 05:16:25 pm »

Dwarves, supposedly being more badass that humans, should be able to cope better with old memories, I think.
Which dwarves? Besides bigger livers, is there anything to indicate dwarves are more "badass" than humans?

Humans are the ambitious, slave owning expansionists, leading their armies to take over the world. Dwarves are bearded fellas, who prefer to live in holes and not get involved.

Exactly. Ten times more badass. :P
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It's actually pretty terrifying to think about having all of your fat melt off into grease because you started sweating too much.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2018, 05:24:20 pm »

Dwarves, supposedly being more badass that humans, should be able to cope better with old memories, I think.
Which dwarves? Besides bigger livers, is there anything to indicate dwarves are more "badass" than humans?

Humans are the ambitious, slave owning expansionists, leading their armies to take over the world. Dwarves are bearded fellas, who prefer to live in holes and not get involved.

Exactly. Ten times more badass. :P
Ha, well yeah. That's what I meant.  :)
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WordsandChaos

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2018, 12:08:54 pm »

-snip-

Dwarves do get hardened, that feature has been in the game for years. There's a "discipline" skill which makes dwarves less likely to get stress from combat and death and military dwarves improve it usually, meaning that your corpse-cleaners should be hardened army veterans and not cheesemakers. Dwarves also respond to different situations differently depending on their traits. Some dwarves are very prone to stress and are cowards; making such a dwarf into a soldier would result in a mentally broken dwarf. Some dwarves are fearless and aggressive and make ideal warriors.

also this kinda belongs to the suggestions forum rather than this thread

Yeah it came off more suggest-y than intended. It was more supposed to be an off-cuff musing on the various potential issues that other people were pointing out. My point about hardening was that it seems to be wholesale, as opposed to situation specific.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2018, 10:54:52 pm »

Annual tributes working OK for everyone?
Just got my first and they did a hello-goodbye. There was an announcement then they vanished.

I'd blame it on the giant hamster that was roaming around nearby, but they're elves so it shouldn't have bothered them.

--Summer tribute from a different bunch of elves just arrived. This time it worked. We accept your tribute of one grown-wood crutch. See you next year!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 01:36:48 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2018, 04:02:05 am »

Given that it's worked once, it might be the same elusive underlying issue as with sieges. If it is, that's sort of good news, as I assume you know when the tribute caravans are due to show up (haven't gotten to raiding yet myself), so there might be a chance for a save where it can be reproduced.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2018, 04:38:29 am »

Given that it's worked once, it might be the same elusive underlying issue as with sieges. If it is, that's sort of good news, as I assume you know when the tribute caravans are due to show up (haven't gotten to raiding yet myself), so there might be a chance for a save where it can be reproduced.
Yeah, it's seasonal, so should be easier to catch.
Regular merchant wagon just froze in the entrance to my depot. Hmph.

In other news stress is working. It's great, but we seem to be back at 'fortress meltdown because there's a tooth in the corridor' again. Time to add mass graves, bonfires, corpse eating wildlife, etc. I don't mind the stress of seeing a corpse, that's pretty stressful to some people, but some qol in the hide-the-bodies department would be welcome.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 05:04:46 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Orkel

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2018, 03:04:38 pm »

Posted this in the stress thread in DF general, gonna post it here as well.

The "seeing dead body" thoughts are way too strong. Those thoughts alone are the reason why the system is imbalanced right now.
They should only happen when the dead body is a dwarf or a citizen of your fort. That would balance the system completely. I don't think dwarves should give a single fuck about dead goblins, elves or humans.

Here's the emotions list and their strengths btw: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Emotion

The strongest happy thoughts (-1's) are

Adoration    -1
Bliss            -1
Delight    -1
Joy            -1
Jubilation    -1
Love       -1
Lust            -1
Rapture    -1

You need one of these to become a long-term memory to overwrite the dead bodies atm. Everything below (-2 to -8) are not strong enough to overwrite bad thought 1's. Easiest way to do it is by creating temples to pray in to get the enraptured emotion ingrained in their brains. But the other -1's are very hard to get, some like love and lust require social relationships (which don't form properly atm since socialization/forming relations is bugged) and the others like adoration, bliss etc may require RNG like having a child or talking with a child etc.

Compare it with the worst negative thoughts

Agony    1
Anguish    1
Despair    1
Fear            1
Horror    1
Misery    1
Panic    1
Rage            1
Shaken    1
Shock    1
Terror    1
Wrath        1

It is way easier to get stuff like Rage (argument in a tavern, happens constantly) and horror, panic and shaken (getting attacked in a tavern brawl, or seeing a body).
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Toady One

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2018, 03:46:44 pm »

Concerning the duplicate equipping crash bug worked around:
Would it help if forumites could provide 0.44.09 "before" and "after" save pairs where the "before" save would be before a raid was sent out and the "after" save would be one where that raid has been sent out and the game would crash on return? Would it provide info that could be compared in some useful manner to determine what the actual cause of the problem is?
Unfortunately, I don't have any "seed" world to use for such an investigation myself...

It's possible, but since the issue is a corruption of the unit files and doesn't have initial symptoms, it might be difficult for players to know that their save is pre-corrupt, so I think it would mostly lead to unusable data.  If somebody gets the new duplicate item log after only ever having sent out one raid, that would be a data point.  My assumption now is that it takes multiple raids with the same dwarves to produce the corruption, and that could be wrong.

edit: typo

You need one of these to become a long-term memory to overwrite the dead bodies atm. Everything below (-2 to -8) are not strong enough to overwrite bad thought 1's. Easiest way to do it is by creating temples to pray in to get the enraptured emotion ingrained in their brains. But the other -1's are very hard to get, some like love and lust require social relationships (which don't form properly atm since socialization/forming relations is bugged) and the others like adoration, bliss etc may require RNG like having a child or talking with a child etc.

That's not entirely how it works; individual emotional intensities are also rated from 1 to 100, and they are divided by your ranking for how lasting they are.  So an emotion that is -8 at intensity 100 gives a power of 100/8 = 12.5, where an emotion that is -1 at intensity 10 would be 10/1 = 10 (so it wouldn't be a replacement).  However, the higher ranked emotions tend to have stronger intensities as well, so the list you provide is not a terrible guide, generally.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 09:28:56 pm by Toady One »
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Orkel

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2018, 04:10:48 pm »

That's not entirely how it works; individual emotional intensities are also rated from 1 to 100, and they are divided by your ranking for how lasting they are.  So an emotion that is -8 at intensity 100 gives a power of 100/8 = 12.5, where an emotion that is -1 at intensity 10 would be 10/1 = 10 (so it wouldn't be a replacement).  However, the higher ranked emotions tend to have stronger intensities as well, so the list you provide is not a terrible guide, generally.

Ah, so there's background stuff as well. I thought memory overwriting was just based on the 1-8 numbers on the wiki :) Thanks for the clarification. I'm guessing the "intensity" of an emotion depends on stuff like personality, relationships, maybe other memories and maybe current stress levels etc but the exact numbers and/or algorithms for those are likely hush hush due to hardcode. Hoping we can see a bit of balancing in 40.11 whenever it may come, if not by nerfing/changing the dead body thought, then maybe adding some kind of modifier that tries to "average" the stress overtime towards the center instead of staying at the extremes.
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Dwarf Fortress: The game in which people place abducted children in a furnace to see what happens.

Toady One

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2018, 04:25:06 pm »

Yeah, the next version will very likely have one or the other or both.  I have some good saves I can look at and so forth, so hopefully I can pick some decent numbers if they are a problem, and if the numbers are fine, focus just on the ridiculous "scary teeth" part of it.  Although I guess teeth are scary sometimes, but it takes like a whole horror movie to build up to why, and these are just random troll teeth.
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dragdeler

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2018, 11:55:42 pm »

Dwarves, supposedly being more badass that humans, should be able to cope better with old memories, I think.
Which dwarves? Besides bigger livers, is there anything to indicate dwarves are more "badass" than humans?

Don't they have above average toughness?

Mala

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2018, 12:25:23 am »

The "seeing dead body" thoughts are way too strong. Those thoughts alone are the reason why the system is imbalanced right now.
They should only happen when the dead body is a dwarf or a citizen of your fort. That would balance the system completely. I don't think dwarves should give a single fuck about dead goblins, elves or humans.

I disagree. Unlike the players, dwarfs actually do care about civilized people dyeing.

That said, non-civ members should be less of an effect, and civs that the dwarfs are at war with should definitely not give bad thoughts if they're dead. Possibly even a good thought if the deceased killed a close friend of family member of the dwarf looking at it.
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