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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released  (Read 35490 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2018, 03:46:13 am »

The "seeing dead body" thoughts are way too strong. Those thoughts alone are the reason why the system is imbalanced right now.
They should only happen when the dead body is a dwarf or a citizen of your fort. That would balance the system completely. I don't think dwarves should give a single fuck about dead goblins, elves or humans.

I disagree. Unlike the players, dwarfs actually do care about civilized people dyeing.

That said, non-civ members should be less of an effect, and civs that the dwarfs are at war with should definitely not give bad thoughts if they're dead. Possibly even a good thought if the deceased killed a close friend of family member of the dwarf looking at it.
I think teeth and skeletons ought to give less of a horror thought than dismembered members, which in turn ought to have a lesser weight than whole bodies, which would have less of an effect than mutilated ones. Animals ought to have no effects on any but the most squeamish of dorfs (DF has active butchering, so they're close to that, as opposed to current day city dwellers). Slow learners would probably have less impact than "civilized" races, while unknown people would have less of an impact than passing acquaintances<-buddies<-lovers<-family members (annoying grudge acquaintances should rank as unknown from a horror perspective, possibly further reduced by the positive knowledge of being rid of the annoyance). Enemy civ<-foreign civ<-own civ, with enemies being possible to give a positive thought. However, a dead human is a horrifying dead human, even it it was an enemy, so the positive factor has to fight a horror factor.
I think humans adapt reasonably quickly to both the horror of war and the horror of emergency services/medical care, and dorfs probably aren't too different in that respect.

@Toady:
My pre corruption save suggestion would basically be implemented as:
1. I intend to send out a raid. Save and copy the save.
2. I've send out a raid and it's due back soon. Save and copy the save.
3A. The raid returned with no crash. Delete the 1 and 2 save copies and return to the starting point.
3B. The raid returned with a crash. Provide the 1 and 2 saves, preferably after verifying that save 2 results in a crash.

The single raid current assumption/hunch is an important point for forumites to look out for counter proof of (it's unfortunate your post has the typing error "on" rather than "one", as it took me some re-reading to understand it fully).

And the background info provided to Orkel's post is quite interesting as well.
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Amperzand

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2018, 04:56:58 am »

The new stress system definitely seems problematic, but not necessarily entirely unrealistic. It seems reasonable that dwarves who work hard all the time, and then are forced to loot the corpses of an army slaughtered by their friends, will break down under the stress, even if their rooms are fancy. I feel like what's needed are more ways to handle stress beyond chugging alcohol and looking at finely decorated beds, not necessarily less trauma.
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Muh FG--OOC Thread
Quote from: smirk
Quote from: Shadowlord
Is there a word that combines comedy with tragedy and farce?
Heiterverzweiflung. Not a legit German word so much as something a friend and I made up in German class once. "Carefree despair". When life is so fucked that you can't stop laughing.
http://www.collinsdictionary.com

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2018, 05:04:35 am »

I notice thoughts (or memories) still aren't being produced for raiders, which is a shame. Is that intentional right now (hard to give thoughts to offloaded characters) or is something broken?

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10637

Just a thought for the far future, when such things are more vanilla, but my modded [ABUSE_BODIES] civ are happily impaling their enemies on stakes during raids, but cracking under the strain of having a corpse pile by the entrance of their fortress. Seems inconsistent. :)

Must say, besides the 'frightening teeth' thing, stress is working nicely. Each tantrum seems to result in some punch ups, thrown buckets and such, but then they calm down. Insane people die, the hospital runs out of supplies, the miasma is spreading, but it never feels like the fortress is locked into a long boring cycle of tantrum doom (although maybe it is). Just gotta hide the bodies, section of the loonies, bring in some more migrants and things might even get better. Maybe. Hark,  is that the tramp of goblin boots I hear approaching.... :)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 05:15:10 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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Sver

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2018, 05:40:10 am »

I disagree. Unlike the players, dwarfs actually do care about civilized people dyeing.

That said, non-civ members should be less of an effect, and civs that the dwarfs are at war with should definitely not give bad thoughts if they're dead. Possibly even a good thought if the deceased killed a close friend of family member of the dwarf looking at it.

I think it would be simpler (and more reasonable) to tone down the generic 'seeing a dead body' thought and give an additional strong thought for seeing a body of a friend/relative. Thus, the generic thought will represent an instinctual horror of seeing a dead humanoid and the strength may be tied to a dwarves empathy and cruelty.

I don't think there should be a good thought for seeing dead enemy combatants specifically. Rather, a very cruel, non-empathetic dwarf may feel creepy good at seeing corpses. Although, I think an end of a siege should always give a strong happy thought, as that is an obviously good thing.
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MCreeper

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2018, 05:57:54 am »

I don't think there should be a good thought for seeing dead enemy combatants specifically. Rather, a very cruel, non-empathetic dwarf may feel creepy good at seeing corpses. Although, I think an end of a siege should always give a strong happy thought, as that is an obviously good thing.

Well, there is already "grim satisfaction" thought. It's extremely rare thing to see, though (FAKEEDIT: and, turns out, it does have stress value of exactly 0  :( ). Here is thoughts and character screen of only one i seen. Not sure if it does need only "utterly fearless when confronted with danger", or also "often cheerful" or "uncomfortable around those that appear unusual".
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2018, 06:40:38 am »

Oh great. New migrant in my nice new clean stress-free fortress. She's heading straight for a meeting since, yeah, she's a haggard migrant from my previous over-stressed fortress on the other side of the world. Hope this 'gamey' bit of the game goes away some day. Yeah, it's a nice surprise when an old friend shows up, but right now old fortress dorfs are far too likely to turn up at your new fortress instead of anywhere else in the world (or just staying where they are - the place is retired, not abandoned). Not at all immersive.

Well, besides the fact that my fortress is the only one in the world with a working hospital. That might be attractive I guess.  :)

--Make that three stressed dorfs. One of which is 'too insane' to do anything. My what a useful migrant wave that was.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 06:46:54 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2018, 07:36:21 am »

@MCreeper:
Have you checked who the dead one was? I suspect it was someone your dorf had a grudge against.
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MCreeper

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2018, 08:16:24 am »

Nope, i didn't. Yeah, may be just this.  :-\

Lioneez

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2018, 01:30:33 pm »

I was jest wondering was the bug that caused visitors to become labeled "hostile" after reclaiming a fort got fixed?
I mean sure I can kill them to try and reset everything because if they stay I noticed another bug appears which does not allow traders to come to your fort, maybe I jest got unlucky but killing +50 units each time I finish an adventure is kind of tiring after your king who was in the military somehow went somewhere and now I cant even use that squad but that I can live with.

P.S: ok so after slaughtering all the passive aggressive hostiles around my play ground after a season I got a trading caravan from my civilization that was presumed dead, so that missing king of mine, he went to the mountain home and replaced the king there, I got the info from the civ window but on my military window he is still enlisted and on top of that under the tag "TRAVELING", cant remove him cant order that squad, hmm maybe ill go kill him in adventure mode to fix my little problem.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 01:54:44 pm by Lioneez »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2018, 04:35:24 pm »

I was jest wondering was the bug that caused visitors to become labeled "hostile" after reclaiming a fort got fixed?
I mean sure I can kill them to try and reset everything because if they stay I noticed another bug appears which does not allow traders to come to your fort, maybe I jest got unlucky but killing +50 units each time I finish an adventure is kind of tiring after your king who was in the military somehow went somewhere and now I cant even use that squad but that I can live with.

P.S: ok so after slaughtering all the passive aggressive hostiles around my play ground after a season I got a trading caravan from my civilization that was presumed dead, so that missing king of mine, he went to the mountain home and replaced the king there, I got the info from the civ window but on my military window he is still enlisted and on top of that under the tag "TRAVELING", cant remove him cant order that squad, hmm maybe ill go kill him in adventure mode to fix my little problem.
There is no mentioning of it being fixed in the release notes, so it probably isn't. Your civ isn't dead if you get a caravan, nor is it dead if you get a monarch: it's merely struggling (but can be very good at pretending to be dead).
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Toady One

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2018, 09:37:22 pm »

Quote from: PatrikLundell
My pre corruption save suggestion would basically be implemented as:
1. I intend to send out a raid. Save and copy the save.
2. I've send out a raid and it's due back soon. Save and copy the save.
3A. The raid returned with no crash. Delete the 1 and 2 save copies and return to the starting point.
3B. The raid returned with a crash. Provide the 1 and 2 saves, preferably after verifying that save 2 results in a crash.

Yeah, with that protocol we might get lucky, but it depends on how the error works.  It's possible the #1 save will contain the pre-corrupt unit files, in which case I'd have some kind of lead.  I suppose even if the #1 unit files are corrupt, it's another data point, though not one that tells us much.  So it seems a bit much to organize as a community endeavor, as it's very likely to be a small data point in either case.  I probably have to dig into the guts and frequency of how the unit offloads work.  Something is just going very wrong and it gives no indication at the moment it happens.

Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
I notice thoughts (or memories) still aren't being produced for raiders, which is a shame. Is that intentional right now (hard to give thoughts to offloaded characters) or is something broken?

It's intentional.  There's a speed issue with loading there files too often, but there's also the issue of recreating/faking the circumstances outside of a loaded play area, which can be easy or hard depending on the thought.  So it's just not a priority.  It might come up if we do w.g. memories, as in that case it can probably be handled in the same way, through the historical figure rather than the unit.

Quote from: mifki
Crashes when loading some of the old saves. For example, this is fine http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=11905 but this crashes http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12121

If I'm testing this right, it doesn't load in 44.09 either.  Do we know which version this one went wrong in?  Debugging the load crash doesn't give me any immediately useful information.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2018, 11:31:03 am »

:
If I'm testing this right, it doesn't load in 44.09 either.  Do we know which version this one went wrong in?  Debugging the load crash doesn't give me any immediately useful information.
It crashes on all versions back to 0.44.02 when I try it, and loads on 0.43.05. I don't have an install of 0.44.01, but I'd suspect it would break at that version as well.
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alpha

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2018, 12:39:37 pm »

New stress system in 0.44.10 is not very good.

There just does not seem to be any way to produce strong enough good emotions for dwarves to get over seeing a battlefield littered with dead invader goblins, or being attacked by an undead turkey.

I think a fortress with various food, various alcohol, personal good rooms for everyone, a tavern, a library, a temple with a masterwork statue garden, a dining hall and masterwork furniture sprinkled all over the place and plenty of new clothes should maintain quite a lot more happier population than in currently does.
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Orkel

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2018, 04:04:53 pm »

New stress system in 0.44.10 is not very good.

There just does not seem to be any way to produce strong enough good emotions for dwarves to get over seeing a battlefield littered with dead invader goblins, or being attacked by an undead turkey.

I think a fortress with various food, various alcohol, personal good rooms for everyone, a tavern, a library, a temple with a masterwork statue garden, a dining hall and masterwork furniture sprinkled all over the place and plenty of new clothes should maintain quite a lot more happier population than in currently does.

Wait for 44.11, stress balancing was announced for it.
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Quote from: madjoe5
Dwarf Fortress: The game in which people place abducted children in a furnace to see what happens.
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