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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released  (Read 27645 times)

Ispil

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2018, 01:32:24 am »

I'd say that the thought for seeing a dead body of a not-dwarven civ should be rather small (nonzero): greater than an animal but smaller than seeing a dead dwarf. For dead dwarves, it should still be rather small. However, their relationship status with the dead dwarf (or, I suppose, dead not-dwarf person) should make the rating shoot through the roof. Doesn't make it moot in all cases, but makes it at least playable without your entire fortress collapsing due to some dead goblins.

Regarding the idea of seeing multiple dead bodies, I think that would be easier handled as just diminishing emotional value when you already have one of that group already there. If a dwarf has a short-term "saw a dead goblin," seeing additional dead goblins should have a diminishing return so that they stop mattering after a point, so long as the memory is still in the short term (while refreshing it each time, of course). Hell, that should probably apply to every memory, body-related or not, with different scaling based on the memory in question.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2018, 02:05:11 am »

Quote
I'd say that the thought for seeing a dead body of a not-dwarven civ should be rather small (nonzero): greater than an animal but smaller than seeing a dead dwarf. 

Including the humans, elves and goblins (and other procedurally generated races) who fought on your side?

Or is your logic that they're "bad" so it causes a person no stress to look upon their mutilated remains. How can they tell the difference when it's one hacked up pile of rotting body parts covered in carrion?

For disciplined soldiers, yeah sure, I'd agree that enemy body parts are something they get used to (in the short-term, at least) but for regular citizens? The fact that there are enemy body parts outside indicates how close they were to all being slaughtered and how easily they could come under siege again.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 02:09:03 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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alpha

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2018, 06:44:35 am »

but for regular citizens? The fact that there are enemy body parts outside indicates how close they were to all being slaughtered and how easily they could come under siege again.

Or, it could be a happy thought: our military has kicked ass of whatever came to our door and will do so again.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2018, 07:22:03 am »

but for regular citizens? The fact that there are enemy body parts outside indicates how close they were to all being slaughtered and how easily they could come under siege again.

Or, it could be a happy thought: our military has kicked ass of whatever came to our door and will do so again.
Which could easily be interpreted as, "we're stuck in hole in the ground and are being repeatedly attacked by ever increasing numbers of enemies. I'm feeling stressed".
But it really should depend on the personality of the dwarf (with military training and discipline helping out the militia and perhaps religious doctrine or something helping out the regular citizens).
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xordae

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2018, 11:50:57 am »

I don't know what you did with this version, but I'm seeing massive FPS improvements in my generational fort. Going from ~14 FPS to ~22.
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2018, 12:22:18 pm »

I've noticed that too. For fort mode at least, adventure mode is still a mess FPS-wise when it comes to exceptionally large and populous sites.
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thvaz

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2018, 03:32:39 pm »

I've noticed that too. For fort mode at least, adventure mode is still a mess FPS-wise when it comes to exceptionally large and populous sites.

Adventure mode is close to unplayable if you want to go to large towns and goblins sites.
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Lunardog15

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2018, 03:45:51 pm »

I think that is cause it has to deal with the ai for all of the things
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2018, 05:25:29 pm »

I think that's only part of the problem. Unfortunately, whichever way you cut it there's no easy solution right now that wouldn't involve compromising a good deal of the complexity that makes DF so wonderful.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 05:33:38 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2018, 05:38:17 pm »

I think that's only part of the problem. Unfortunately, whichever way you cut it there's no easy solution right now that wouldn't involve compromising a good deal of the complexity that makes DF so wonderful.
Well, I don't think a pop 10,000 town needs to simulate the exact location of all 10,000 individuals every tick. You'd never be in a situation where you'd need to see them all at adventurer level. Perhaps that's not actually what it's doing, but the difference between a pop 250 site and a pop 10,000 site is very noticeable so it seems like there's some redundancy in there somewhere.
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DG

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2018, 09:03:43 am »

"we're stuck in hole in the ground and are being repeatedly attacked by ever increasing numbers of enemies. I'm feeling stressed".
But it really should depend on the personality of the dwarf

This happens all the time in DF worlds so you'd expect those types to be weeded out quickly, or for the civilization to collapse, whichever comes first. A world that guarantees goblin attacks wouldn't be brimming with individuals that can't deal adequately with the consequences of surviving one.
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Sver

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2018, 11:59:16 am »


This happens all the time in DF worlds so you'd expect those types to be weeded out quickly, or for the civilization to collapse, whichever comes first. A world that guarantees goblin attacks wouldn't be brimming with individuals that can't deal adequately with the consequences of surviving one.

Most of the dwarves you get as migrants more often than not never seen war. While I agree that the "buff" received by ones who were soldiers in worldgen is awfully meaningless (1st level Discipline at best), for the rest the point still stands.

The horror of seeing dead humanoids is instinctual, especially when it comes to their mutiliated corpses. In real life, it can even cause sudden vomiting or fainting, so yeah, nothing pleasant.

There was an interesting workaround, proposed on reddit, on how to make corpse-horror more balanced without making all dwarves natural-born sociopaths: apply some sort of cap on how much 'seeing a dead body' thoughts a dwarf can get in a token period of time. "Death of a million is a statistic" and all that. It simply makes more sense than a dwarf counting all the corpses on a battlefield and feeling personally affected by each one; and more sense than a dwarf who doesn't really care about ten corpses, but finds twenty a bit unnerving already.
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DG

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2018, 12:17:46 pm »

Yeah, there's a lot of dissonance currently with player forts being exceptional, and not even when players choose to embark on reanimating glaciers that intermittently rain blood.
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alpha

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2018, 12:31:33 pm »

I think lifting a siege by slaying/scaring away invaders, or slaying a megabeast/titan/etc should generate a huge positive thought for everyone in a fortress (and even more so for battle participants). That's the only way I see dwarves reacting to a won conflict, and it should offset whatever negative thoughts dealing with after-battle cleanup generates.

On the other hand, I see how having [SIEGE] on for a prolonged period of time can generate stress.
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Amperzand

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.10 Released
« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2018, 01:11:08 am »

I honestly think it makes sense for dwarves to be traumatized by these experiences. Our drunken peasants are not as sociopathic as we sometimes imagine them to be. However, the system could use some tuning, such as the "scary teeth", and more ways to make them less stressed which make sense. Giving them luxurious rooms should not be as effective a stress management tactic as appointing dedicated therapists, say. Make the "consoler" skill an assignable job, IMO.
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