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[Daniel0x00]

The question is actually about designing one's defenses: if I place vertical bars (instead of walls), will it reliably hold unmounted goblins and elves?

What if I build a wall and vertical bars in the z-level above?

[Dutchling]

Climbing is a thing now, so I doubt it.

You want to build your walls like this. if you want to prevent enemies from climbing them:

Code: [Select]

.##.
..#.
####
Where "#" is solid and "." is air, and the right side is the safe side

[PatrikLundell]

I don't know if bars can be climbed or not.

However, Dutchling's description is not safe. Weirdly enough, a floor jutting out one tile cannot be climbed, but a wall jutting out one tile can. Also, there's a risk of reaching up/jumping, so I'd jut it out two tiles at two levels above the ground ('cause just a floor jutting out a single tile looks silly).

[Bumber]

I'm pretty sure I've heard they can't climb most buildings. (IDK about drawbridges.) Vertical bars, wall grates, and statues can be shot through. Floodgates can't.

[Ulfarr]

Wouldn't the second (inner) wall tile on Dutchling's design stop them from climbing? I thought the problem with jutting a wall is when built like this:

.#..
..#.
##

Where enemies will just climb/jump diagonally between the two wall layers.

Anyway, aside from aesthetics reasons, the jutting method seems overcomplicated to me. A simple two z-level high wall built from blocks is enough to stop any climbing/jumping over.

Back to the vertical bars question, whether they are climbable or not, they can still be broken down by trolls or any other building destroyer creature so while it can halt an invasion for a while it's not enough in case you really need to stop their advance.

[Daniel0x00]

But can trolls jump to smash bars on the second z-level if there is a wall below bars?

[PatrikLundell]

Wouldn't the second (inner) wall tile on Dutchling's design stop them from climbing? I thought the problem with jutting a wall is when built like this:

.#..
..#.
##

Where enemies will just climb/jump diagonally between the two wall layers.

Anyway, aside from aesthetics reasons, the jutting method seems overcomplicated to me. A simple two z-level high wall built from blocks is enough to stop any climbing/jumping over.

Back to the vertical bars question, whether they are climbable or not, they can still be broken down by trolls or any other building destroyer creature so while it can halt an invasion for a while it's not enough in case you really need to stop their advance.

No, the climber continues to climb on the outside, not diagonally.

Blocks is harder to climb than raw walls, but it's still possible to climb them. Smoothed stone walls are said to be impossible to climb, but I've seen a claim of it being done successfully after a number of years of trying to climb out of a moat.

Since a building destroyer has to be able to stand two tiles away from the target perpendicularly, they can't jump-smash bars that are elevated without an eligible place to stand to destroy them. They also need a valid path to the target, but that requirement can be satisfied through the entrance along a path to the other side of the bars.

[Ulfarr]

Blocks is harder to climb than raw walls, but it's still possible to climb them. Smoothed stone walls are said to be impossible to climb, but I've seen a claim of it being done successfully after a number of years of trying to climb out of a moat.

Are you sure about blocks being climpable? I might just had been lucky, but so far I never had any enemies even try to climb over a 2 z level high block wall. Usualy the moment the bridges are raised, any attempt from the enemies to enter the fort just halts and they start to wander around the map.
 
The only case I had  where a goblin "climbed" on a wall (I'm not sure whether it was block or smooth stone and it might have also been a carved fortification tile) was when it tried to dodge a bolt and then somehow ended up stuck on the outer side of my archery tower.

Since a building destroyer has to be able to stand two tiles away from the target perpendicularly, they can't jump-smash bars that are elevated without an eligible place to stand to destroy them. They also need a valid path to the target, but that requirement can be satisfied through the entrance along a path to the other side of the bars.

Somehow I missed the part in the OP where the bars where supposed to be on top of a wall. My bad.

[PatrikLundell]

Climbing isn't part of normal pathing, but is used to reach visible targets. Once you close the drawbridge enemies have no reason to climb, unless possibly if they're already trying to attack someone on the other side (and I don't know if climbing repathing can be engaged to reach targets that disappear from sight).
Note that "natural climbers" such as troglodytes and crundles use paths including climbing normally, but goblins won't.

I haven't performed any climbing experiments myself, but am only repeating the conventional forum wisdom regarding how hard it is to climb things.

[Shazbot]

I trapped a goblin archer in my gatehouse once.

Code: [Select]

XXXXXXX
_H...H_
X.....X
X..g..X
XXXXXXX


Where the H is a fortification and all the X's are smoothed stone.

After maybe a month of attempts and some blood on the floor from falls, he managed to climb up past the overhang and get himself up to the very top.

Code: [Select]

XXXXXXX
_H..gH_
X.....X
X.....X
XXXXXXX


There he was firing a bow and arrow through my fortifications at civilian dwarves hauling to and from the barracks. It was an impressive feat of hang-by-your-toes or something.

[Bumber]

Are you sure about blocks being climpable?

I'm not sure what metal bar walls are meant to be, especially since we have vertical bars, but they are the easy kind to climb.  A wall made from any kind of "blocks" is much more difficult to climb -- logs and rough stone walls are treated the same way, as easier climbs.  Which one would be more difficult would probably depend on nuances of size and arrangement we don't have.  Natural walls that are smoothed aren't climbable right now, but that'll probably change for certain creatures (all pillar-shaped walls are climbable now).

Toady said they're more difficult, but possible.

[PatrikLundell]

Thanks for the quote, Bumber.

[Ulfarr]

I'm not sure what metal bar walls are meant to be, especially since we have vertical bars, but they are the easy kind to climb.  A wall made from any kind of "blocks" is much more difficult to climb -- logs and rough stone walls are treated the same way, as easier climbs.  Which one would be more difficult would probably depend on nuances of size and arrangement we don't have.  Natural walls that are smoothed aren't climbable right now, but that'll probably change for certain creatures (all pillar-shaped walls are climbable now).

Toady said they're more difficult, but possible.

That quote is interesting, particulary the "harder to climb" part. Does it applies always? Is there something (like having visible targets as Patrik said) that controls when it can happen? Shazbot's post has a goblin that either managed to climb the supposedly impossible to climb smoothed stone or jump 2 levels higher ( impossible according to wiki )  in order to grab the fortifications. I guess some !!SCIENCE!! is in order

 Also, has Toady or anyone else explained what "pillar shaped walls" means ingame?

[PatrikLundell]

Harder to climb means it is more difficult to successfully climb it, and has nothing (or at least little) to do with the decision to try to climb it.

[Bumber]

That quote is interesting, particulary the "harder to climb" part. Does it applies always? Is there something (like having visible targets as Patrik said) that controls when it can happen? Shazbot's post has a goblin that either managed to climb the supposedly impossible to climb smoothed stone or jump 2 levels higher ( impossible according to wiki )  in order to grab the fortifications. I guess some !!SCIENCE!! is in order

Also, has Toady or anyone else explained what "pillar shaped walls" means ingame?

Harder to climb means that low-skilled climbers will occasionally lose their grip and fall. Climbing usually only occurs in combat, due to FPS reasons. (They also grab walls while falling, and will climb from there. There's another condition which involves being stuck. Not sure if it applies to invaders.)

I would have to know the specifics of Shazbot's setup. Maybe they overlooked something. To be absolutely clear, "smoothed stone" means natural rock that has been smoothed over by stone detailers.

Toady says there's no vertical jumping:

NPCs only jump horizontally for CPU safety purposes, and I've tested that.  With a series of little pillars I made in the arena they were quite hoppy.

Pillars are likely 1x1 walls surrounded by air. In other words, the ones that display as 'O'.