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[Il Palazzo]

I believe the tiger IS there, and he died for our sins.

[Maximum Spin]

I believe the tiger IS there, and he died for our sins.

Is this what you get when you cross C. S. Lewis with Rudyard Kipling?

[MorleyDev]

The real tiger was the friends we made along the way.

Ok, we’re using different baselines for “rational”. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be saying individual decisions are rational. What I’m saying is that the beliefs a person holds don’t need to be rational. There’s no contradiction there, so I guess we mostly agree.

There are no rational beliefs.

I believe that when I stop outside my house i will not go flying into space. That belief is based on the previous experience of not flying into space, but it's a belief. There's two types of belief or 'faith' or whatever to categorise, a belief based on prior experience and a belief that experience will follow.

`He's never broke my trust before despite having oppurtunity, so I believe he won't have broken it this time` is a rational conclusion, whilst `He's a priest and therefore will never break my trust` is belief without the prior experience with that person to substantiate it. But this is all semantic xD The rational conclusion can be wrong, and those types of conclusions are more open to being challenged and changed with extra evidence.

[thompson]

The real tiger was the friends we made along the way.

Ok, we’re using different baselines for “rational”. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be saying individual decisions are rational. What I’m saying is that the beliefs a person holds don’t need to be rational. There’s no contradiction there, so I guess we mostly agree.

There are no rational beliefs.

I believe that when I stop outside my house i will not go flying into space. That belief is based on the previous experience of not flying into space, but it's a belief. There's two types of belief or 'faith' or whatever to categorise, a belief based on prior experience and a belief that experience will follow.

`He's never broke my trust before despite having oppurtunity, so I believe he won't have broken it this time` is a rational conclusion, whilst `He's a priest and therefore will never break my trust` is belief without the prior experience with that person to substantiate it. But this is all semantic xD The rational conclusion can be wrong, and those types of conclusions are more open to being challenged and changed with extra evidence.

I’ll go one better. I believe multiplication is associative.

[Maximum Spin]

I believe that when I stop outside my house i will not go flying into space.

No, you expect it. You don't believe it, because you presumably know that there is, in fact, a possibility that you would for any of a number of reasons, you just don't think any of those reasons will apply.

I’ll go one better. I believe multiplication is associative.

Then you'd be wrong. Multiplication is only associative on a semigroup.

Actually, this gets to an important thing I see people say (wrongly) rather often. Mathematical statements are not intrinsic logical truths, they are definitions. Multiplication in R is associative because it's defined that way. It's a convention, not a fact.

[thompson]

I believe that when I stop outside my house i will not go flying into space.

No, you expect it. You don't believe it, because you presumably know that there is, in fact, a possibility that you would for any of a number of reasons, you just don't think any of those reasons will apply.

I’ll go one better. I believe multiplication is associative.

Then you'd be wrong. Multiplication is only associative on a semigroup.

Actually, this gets to an important thing I see people say (wrongly) rather often. Mathematical statements are not intrinsic logical truths, they are definitions. Multiplication in R is associative because it's defined that way. It's a convention, not a fact.

I was referring to R, but left myself open to that one. In any case, you understand my point. A person certainly can believe things that are trivially true. Real-world beliefs are trickier, but you can maintain rationally by qualifying everything with terms such as “consistent with” or “likely to”. I’ll grant you it’s uncommon, though.

[scriver]

And why do I expect it? Because I believe it.

[Il Palazzo]

I believe the tiger IS there, and he died for our sins.

Is this what you get when you cross C. S. Lewis with Rudyard Kipling?

Crudeyard L. Sheepling. Half man, half author, all tiger.

[wierd]

Only on paper.

(hides)

[Reelya]

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/deliberately-made-gary-ablett-snrs-shares-radical-coronavirus-conspiracy-theories/news-story/0fa2b3c0208fb291dda20df31cc7666b

AFL legend Gary Ablett Sr. has uploaded a lengthy face-to-camera video in which he claims the coronavirus was “deliberately made and designed, and deliberately released” by the Illuminati and other secret societies.

The 27-minute video titled “What’s really going on and who’s behind it all” was uploaded to YouTube on Thursday. In it, the 58-year-old shares a number of conspiracy theories related to COVID-19.

“I feel a little bit motivated and compelled to come out and say some things that really need to be said concerning our current circumstances,” Ablett Sr. said.

“We’re talking about the Illuminati, Freemasonry fraternities, secret society people who are behind all this. It’s been going on now since the plans all started with the Illuminati way back in 1776.

The "Illuminati" thing is one of the signs you're dealing with a barely literally knob-head. It doesn't take much personal research to work out who and what the actual "Illuminati" were. It just means "enlightened" as in "The Enlightenment".

They were just a group of German rationalists who wanted to get more secular people into the Bavarian government, which was at the time monopolized by the Catholic Church, back when you could still be executed horribly for heresy. The idea that the Bavarian Illuminati were a bunch of cackling old men trying to control the world is just silly. But, i guess to those christian conspiracy theorists explaining how the Illuminati only wanted to promote secular humanism wouldn't really help matters since they think Dawkins is the spawn of Satan anyway.

[George_Chickens]

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/deliberately-made-gary-ablett-snrs-shares-radical-coronavirus-conspiracy-theories/news-story/0fa2b3c0208fb291dda20df31cc7666b

AFL legend Gary Ablett Sr. has uploaded a lengthy face-to-camera video in which he claims the coronavirus was “deliberately made and designed, and deliberately released” by the Illuminati and other secret societies.

The 27-minute video titled “What’s really going on and who’s behind it all” was uploaded to YouTube on Thursday. In it, the 58-year-old shares a number of conspiracy theories related to COVID-19.

“I feel a little bit motivated and compelled to come out and say some things that really need to be said concerning our current circumstances,” Ablett Sr. said.

“We’re talking about the Illuminati, Freemasonry fraternities, secret society people who are behind all this. It’s been going on now since the plans all started with the Illuminati way back in 1776.

The "Illuminati" thing is one of the signs you're dealing with a barely literally knob-head. It doesn't take much personal research to work out who and what the actual "Illuminati" were. It just means "enlightened" as in "The Enlightenment".

They were just a group of German rationalists who wanted to get more secular people into the Bavarian government, which was at the time monopolized by the Catholic Church, back when you could still be executed horribly for heresy. The idea that the Bavarian Illuminati were a bunch of cackling old men trying to control the world is just silly. But, i guess to those christian conspiracy theorists explaining how the Illuminati only wanted to promote secular humanism wouldn't really help matters since they think Dawkins is the spawn of Satan anyway.

Bah. Everyone knows it's Majestic 12 who are responsible.

[scriver]

The idea that the Bavarian Illuminati were a bunch of cackling old men trying to control the world is just silly.

So you say, yet the reach of Octoberfest grows further and further each year. Soon they will envelop the whole world in their bavarian barmaid's buxom cleavage

[x2yzh9]

Well to be fair, I don't really blame people for thinking freemasons =/= illuminati. The only difference as far as I can discern between the two was that the Bavarian Illuminati did die off, yes, but freemasonry has been around since ancient times(think Egypt and the pharaohs) and has been persecuted at many times, in ancient Egypt by the pharaohs(They were not slaves however but still helped build the pyramids). Freemasonry was also involved in a huge standoff with Catholicism and Catholics way back in the day(please note I am using 'standoff' in a term of huge generalization). As far as conspiracy theories go, I would like to refer you to the FBI's report on Q anon. Apparently somewhere in their report they left a note regarding actual conspiracy theories and subsequent events,

Spoiler: Yahoo News (click to show/hide)

The FBI said another factor driving the intensity of this threat is “the uncovering of real conspiracies or cover-ups involving illegal, harmful, or unconstitutional activities by government officials or leading political figures.” The FBI does not specify which political leaders or which cover-ups it was referring to.
https://news.yahoo.com/fbi-documents-conspiracy-theories-terrorism-160000507.html?soc_src=hl-viewer&soc_trk=tw

And personally, I think it is the key of irony that Ice Cube, whom I have personally encountered in my travels in life at a place I will not name here, has been posting anti-semitic imagery and Q anon memes lately. I mean it's just ironic to me, because of the fact that while undergoing a stressful life period I actually met the guy at a now-closed Sundance Hospital in Garland. The hospital was shit, suffice to say, and I no longer believe in Q anon(thankfully. I still believe in, well, actual conspiracies that I've been witness to before) but rather think there's a more broad, mainstream conspiracy within the military industrial complex. I mean, what would you do if your entire family's male heritage line was full of Masons, you've met Ice Cube before at a shitty hospital you literally had to make a report to the FBI about to get shut-down(and he himself claimed he worked for the NSA, not my words, his) and when it got shutdown absolutely nothing happened except for the company declaring bankruptcy and only the non-governmental employees being punished. Sounds like a cover-up? Well, that's because it is, and I was there firsthand. Sure, I'm up to debate this, but not into meaningless existence. I do, after all, have a life I'm trying to repair by going to my local college and hopefully pushing for uni one day.

All in all though, I really do despise it when people decide that holding a conspiracy theory to view is designated as a 'mental illness'. There are various factors that go into people having a mental illness that is quantifiably and quantitatively different then someone believing a conspiracy theory. There are also real consequences for having a mental illness in the United States, and there needs to be serious reform on that note. Correlation does not equal causation.

[delphonso]

I think a big part of that is that there are conspiracy theories (MK Ultra, Bush did 9/11, JFK never died) which range from uncovered and true to ridiculous but within the realm of possibility.

And then there are Conspiracy Theories. Like the moon is a giant camera set up by aliens, which require a certain level of delusion. Even these range from plausible but against modern understandings (I dunno, time travel stuff?) all the way to requiring magic and aliens and huge populations keeping secrets like the Human Sacrifices stuff eventually gets to. That is the stuff which equates to mental illness. Because one can't exist without the other.

[Reelya]

Well to be fair, I don't really blame people for thinking freemasons =/= illuminati. The only difference as far as I can discern between the two was that the Bavarian Illuminati did die off, yes, but freemasonry has been around since ancient times(think Egypt and the pharaohs) and has been persecuted at many times, in ancient Egypt by the pharaohs(They were not slaves however but still helped build the pyramids).

This is just silly.


The freemasons formed as part of the guild system in circa the 14th century. They have local chapters because that's the traditional decentralized structure of guilds of the 14th century, and the Masons have kept the ranks and system pretty much intact from that (apprentice, journeyman and master system basically). So what, did they have guilds in ancient Egypt and the rank system just happened to align with how 14th century European guilds work, and the Freemasons somehow carried that on for 4000 years without ever once being mentioned in any historical accounts? They super-secret, i guess, so if anyone could pull off such a daring thing, they could /s

Most of the Freemason conspiracy theories date from the late 19th century, and in fact the idea that they built the pyramids but "weren't slaves" sounds like antisemitic racism: i.e. it's the idea that the Jews are behind the Freemasons. Which is unhistoric too. If the Jews were in Egypt then the likely time would be about 1000 years after the pyramids were built. See the Judea-Masonic Conspiracy Theory:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Masonic_conspiracy_theory

As for the links to Egypt, the freemasons in their founding story do say that "masonry" came from Euclid in Egypt, however this claim is clearly just bullshit.

The earliest masonic texts each contain some sort of a history of the craft, or mystery, of masonry. The oldest known work of this type, The Halliwell Manuscript, or Regius Poem, dates from between 1390 and 1425. This document has a brief history in its introduction, stating that the "craft of masonry" began with Euclid in Egypt, and came to England in the reign of King Athelstan (born about 894, died 27 October 939).[1] Shortly afterwards, the Cooke Manuscript traces masonry to Jabal son of Lamech (Genesis 4: 20–22), and tells how this knowledge came to Euclid, from him to the Children of Israel (while they were in Egypt),

This is clearly illiterate bullshit right here. Euclid was a post-Alexander-the-great Egyptian Greek, around 300BC, which is about 2200 years later than the large-scale architecture of the pyramids or the Sphinx. The idea that he lived in "biblical times" and instructed the Jews on masonry during their soujourn in Egypt is complete bollocks. Euclid lived over a thousand years too late for any of that. So the masons mention a link to Egypt yet it shows they had a complete lack of education on anything to do with Egyptian history. And if 'masonry' came via Euclid to England in 900AD then what the fuck were the Romans doing before that?

Second, the view that the pyramids were built with slave labor, at all, used to be commonly believed but has been thoroughly debunked. The big pyramids were all built around 2500 BC, well before the Egyptians had any sort of empire, and at the time the Pharaohs didn't even have a permanent standing army, let alone enough centralized force to enslave the entire population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_ancient_Egypt#The_Old_Kingdom_(2686%E2%80%932181_BC)

During the Old Kingdom, there was no professional army in Egypt; the governor of each nome (administrative division) had to raise his own volunteer army. Then, all the armies would come together under the Pharaoh to battle. Because military service was not considered prestigious, the army was mostly made up of lower-class men, who could not afford to train in other jobs

That basically doesn't sound like the type of organization you'd have if the Pharaoh was managing millions of slaves.