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Author Topic: Adventure Mode (New Mode?) Business, City, and Nation Management  (Read 1701 times)

GoblinCookie

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Re: Adventure Mode (New Mode?) Business, City, and Nation Management
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2018, 11:24:18 am »

Players can also have hearthpeople, provided they can find a way to become a lord. Generally you need to be the unchallenged claimant to a site I think.

There are no special mechanics for being a lord, or any other position at present.  There are no special mechanics I think for hearthpeople, aside from possibly our ability to 'have' them.
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Ninjabread

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Re: Adventure Mode (New Mode?) Business, City, and Nation Management
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2018, 11:56:08 am »

There are no special mechanics for being a lord, or any other position at present.  There are no special mechanics I think for hearthpeople, aside from possibly our ability to 'have' them.

I think you can tell them to defend a site, aside from that yeah they're currently useless, but my point was that you said:

A hearthperson is a human term for the core minions of a lord, it does not have any connection with adventurers at all; beyond the fact that adventurers can be hearth-people for all the little it effects the game.

This is false. Hearthpeople can be directly connected to adventurers, in such a way that Untrustedlife's suggestion that adventurers could order around their hearthpeople is still valid.
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Adventure Mode (New Mode?) Business, City, and Nation Management
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2018, 12:18:06 pm »

The agreement is simply a statement that they are your adventurer.  A hearthperson is a human term for the core minions of a lord, it does not have any connection with adventurers at all; beyond the fact that adventurers can be hearth-people for all the little it effects the game.

Players can also have hearthpeople, provided they can find a way to become a lord. Generally you need to be the unchallenged claimant to a site I think.

Hearthpeopel can also get actual quests from the lord, that are also tracked as agreements. SO it isn't just "they are adventuring with you" (yes this applies to adventurers too, you get a quest from your lord and it is tracked as an agreement in your Q screens “agreements” page abd you can turn it in and end the agreement and get some fame as a reward) I like goblincookie (and their mod, kinda inspired a mod in working on rn) however I dont think goblincookie gets how much content is in agreements now. I believe you can even assign hearthpeople to zones right now in player sites. Then there also the previous example of temporary agreements such as the guide me to a location agreement, and the "lets overthrow the goblins" agreement you can get during insurrections at goblin controlled sites.

Agreements are much more then "you are my companion" at the current juncture.

Not to say that they don't need work, but they are a very powerful new feature that is already leveraged for being employed by someone to do a quest for them. It is likely it will continue being expanded.

Not that I really feel like arguing with someone and throwing a nice thread like this off track. It’s just that I feel like certain people will benefit from this knowledge.Toady also explicitly stated that he WANTS adventure mode to be more “personal” then fort mode, I have a feeling that he will probably do employment  (proper non-hearth non-lieutenant employment ) by leveraging some mix between the powerful agreement system and the new “group” stuff like performance troupes, and lordship .

As someone who plays mainly adventure mode I tend to mess with these mechanics in game a lot , for example it looks like whether you are a hearth or a lieutenant or not also factors into inheritance (if you become a lieutenant for a bandit, then kill all the other bandits, including the leader, you inherit their position and can get your own lieutenants) for example. Which means being a hearth or lieutenant does mean something more then “you can get quest agreements from me now”.

Sorry for my ramble. But yes more work needs to be done but  the underlying stuff is there and not using that would be silly, he even said in df talk that that was the whole reason for agreements in the first place. So you can hire people to do things for you.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 01:10:48 pm by Untrustedlife »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Adventure Mode (New Mode?) Business, City, and Nation Management
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2018, 07:44:56 am »

This is false. Hearthpeople can be directly connected to adventurers, in such a way that Untrustedlife's suggestion that adventurers could order around their hearthpeople is still valid.

No they can't.  Heathpeople are tied to an entity position, specifically to a [RESPONSIBILITY:LAW_ENFORCEMENT] token.  If you die then the hearthpeople are inherited by the next holder of that position for the site government.  There is no connection with adventurer agreements, which end upon the death of the adventurer.  Hearthpeople work for the site, they don't work for you. 

Hearthpeopel can also get actual quests from the lord, that are also tracked as agreements. SO it isn't just "they are adventuring with you" (yes this applies to adventurers too, you get a quest from your lord and it is tracked as an agreement in your Q screens “agreements” page abd you can turn it in and end the agreement and get some fame as a reward) I like goblincookie (and their mod, kinda inspired a mod in working on rn) however I dont think goblincookie gets how much content is in agreements now. I believe you can even assign hearthpeople to zones right now in player sites. Then there also the previous example of temporary agreements such as the guide me to a location agreement, and the "lets overthrow the goblins" agreement you can get during insurrections at goblin controlled sites.

Glad to know everyone on this forum doesn't hate me.   :)

The quests 'agreements' are given by AI lords to you.  They are also not given by you to anyone else and you can freely ignore them.

Agreements are much more then "you are my companion" at the current juncture.

Not to say that they don't need work, but they are a very powerful new feature that is already leveraged for being employed by someone to do a quest for them. It is likely it will continue being expanded.

Not that I really feel like arguing with someone and throwing a nice thread like this off track. It’s just that I feel like certain people will benefit from this knowledge.Toady also explicitly stated that he WANTS adventure mode to be more “personal” then fort mode, I have a feeling that he will probably do employment  (proper non-hearth non-lieutenant employment ) by leveraging some mix between the powerful agreement system and the new “group” stuff like performance troupes, and lordship .

As someone who plays mainly adventure mode I tend to mess with these mechanics in game a lot , for example it looks like whether you are a hearth or a lieutenant or not also factors into inheritance (if you become a lieutenant for a bandit, then kill all the other bandits, including the leader, you inherit their position and can get your own lieutenants) for example. Which means being a hearth or lieutenant does mean something more then “you can get quest agreements from me now”.

Sorry for my ramble. But yes more work needs to be done but  the underlying stuff is there and not using that would be silly, he even said in df talk that that was the whole reason for agreements in the first place. So you can hire people to do things for you.

I don't recall arguing that the basic mechanics were the problem, yes you can use agreements, or you can use entity relationships; either will do.  It is certainly not a problem for Toady One to apply agreements outside of the general context of AI given quests and "you are my adventurer", that is applying agreements to non-adventurers (that is non-members of the player's group).  What I was arguing is that you cannot simply build the employment system *on* the present employment of adventurers and hearthpeople are not employed by you but by the site.  That is the problem, we cannot simply treat all employees as though they were adventurers. 

Presently all minion adventurers are indistinguishable mechanically, regardless of the nature of their agreement, though all such adventurers have an agreement.  That means the small children we are rescuing, behave as if they were battle-hardened adventurers and are treated as such by enemies, this is NOT a good system and is a right headache.  I don't think that civilians we have hired should follow us around and helps us fight monsters and that is why we cannot build it on the adventurer system we presently have. 
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Ninjabread

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Re: Adventure Mode (New Mode?) Business, City, and Nation Management
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2018, 12:23:10 pm »

This is false. Hearthpeople can be directly connected to adventurers, in such a way that Untrustedlife's suggestion that adventurers could order around their hearthpeople is still valid.

No they can't.  Heathpeople are tied to an entity position, specifically to a [RESPONSIBILITY:LAW_ENFORCEMENT] token.  If you die then the hearthpeople are inherited by the next holder of that position for the site government.  There is no connection with adventurer agreements, which end upon the death of the adventurer.  Hearthpeople work for the site, they don't work for you. 

If that position is held by an adventurer, that's a direct connection that logically would allow the adventurer to give orders. Just cause you're loyal to the kingdom rather than the king, doesn't mean you don't take orders from him. This is the same concept on a smaller scale.

Side note: I don't hate you, I just have bad people skills, I'm a little blunt and inarticulate, but I bear no ill will.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Adventure Mode (New Mode?) Business, City, and Nation Management
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2018, 06:46:55 am »

If that position is held by an adventurer, that's a direct connection that logically would allow the adventurer to give orders. Just cause you're loyal to the kingdom rather than the king, doesn't mean you don't take orders from him. This is the same concept on a smaller scale.

Side note: I don't hate you, I just have bad people skills, I'm a little blunt and inarticulate, but I bear no ill will.

I don't recall claiming that you hated me.   :)

The point I was making is that this does not have anything to do with agreements, nor employment.  The problem with employment is figuring out how to restrict what employees are willing and happy to do, to the things that they ought to be doing and figuring out who should be willing to be employed *by* the adventurer at all. 
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