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Author Topic: Magic?  (Read 1056 times)

Atom777

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Magic?
« on: June 12, 2018, 10:13:40 pm »

So..I had an idea. But I need your guys help. How would you want a procedurally generated magic system to work, and what would you want in it, because Ive noticed that there is only necromancy...so how would my fellow dwarves like to expand it.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2018, 10:26:45 pm »

So..I had an idea. But I need your guys help. How would you want a procedurally generated magic system to work, and what would you want in it, because Ive noticed that there is only necromancy...so how would my fellow dwarves like to expand it.
Please read the dev notes. There's a massive procedurally generated magic system coming up. It's one of the huge things about the next big arc and has been discussed in depth many times.

Start with the dev notes. Then read the PC Gamer interview (Link on the links page and below). Then ask questions about anything you like in the Future of the Fortress thread.

Then head to the suggestions board and give us your ideas on how you think it could be even better.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html

https://www.pcgamer.com/dwarf-fortress-creator-tarn-adams-talks-about-simulating-the-most-complex-magic-system-ever/
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 10:30:47 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Eschar

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2018, 06:19:46 pm »

Shonai, I think the OP is asking what we would like to see in the update, not what is planned for it.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2018, 08:10:04 pm »

If the op had read the notes they'd clearly see that there isn't only necromancy planned for the new system. So I assumed it was referring to improvements over the current version (so I suggested reading about what's planned first).
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Saiko Kila

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 03:18:39 am »

In all seriousness I'd like to see some conjuration spells, specifically summoning, more specifically plasma cannons, sonic turrets and laser towers. Or at least magic unicorns with magic beams. It would be more fun if goblins had similar spells. Alas, I'm not expecting it to happen soon. Still, there's hope, because Toady said he doesn't care about balance, and what's more unbalanced than summoning? (Well, mind control is more unbalanced, but that would probably suck).

For likelier things I'd want to see battlemages, my favourite class in magic-based system. They are not the best warriors, and not the best mages, but they look cool and cause trouble. Would be perfect for squad captains.
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Mort Stroodle

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2018, 08:54:03 pm »

What interests me isn't so much the magic attacks. Yeah swords that freeze the target in a block of ice or whatever are cool, but we've seen that kind of stuff in hundreds of games already. Imagine all the other possibilities. We've got a pretty substantial list of spheres, and it sounds like those spheres are going to be part of the magic system, being magically imbued onto artifacts (probably via runes, at least for the more dwarf-centric part of the magic system). So imagine what possible combinations you could get.

What I would do as far as magical artifacts go is generalize it like this: weapons tend to impart an effect on things that it hits (and deals damage to, otherwise sparring is too much of a pain to micromanage) and in some cases the wielder, clothing/armor imparts an effect on the wearer, and furniture has an AoE effect. You'd probably want to stick in edge cases for interesting items that deserve their own special conditions, but this feels like a good baseline to build off of to me.

Some ideas that have been mulling around in my head:

A healing-associated bed that heals injuries in everybody who sleeps in it, but need to be 'fed' corpses by stockpiling them nearby for the effect to work. If you let it drain all the corpses and don't replace them, the bed will start rotting/skeletonizing nearby dwarves as it heals the occupant. Generalize the system, and you could make any other piece of furniture have the healing as an AoE effect on nearby injured dwarves. A weapon version could heal the wielder and drain the victim, but will drain any nearby units if the wielder is injured and not hitting anything. This would add a cost to it: if the wielder is fighting near other dwarves, you could be killing your own allies. A wearable version would just heal the wearer and drain the victim, probably at a greater rate for both than the passive weapon effect. Stick the wearer in a squad full of disposable recruits for maximum survivability of your most important dwarf at the cost of survivability for everyone else.

An ocean-associated floodgate that produces unlimited water when activated with a lever. Leave it closed for too long, and it will start leaking water out on its own, potentially flooding your fort if you aren't careful. Great for defense and providing your dwarves with an infinite water source, potential for water megaprojects, but could also destroy your fort. Harder to generalize the effect, perhaps furniture artifacts that can't be hooked up to a lever could have a lower rate of flow, but still always produce water when constructed. Wearable items and weapons would probably need a totally different effect, because a leaky dwarf is not particularly helpful for a fortress.

A forgiveness/mercy associated hood that causes foes to spare the wearer when heavily wounded. The wearer's personality is shifted to be more merciful whenever the effect saves their life, which could cause them to be less useful in combat (they would eventually start sparing enemies as well, or just become more shaken when they're ordered to kill). Keeps important dwarves alive, but potentially at the cost of reducing the lethality of your army. Something like this could have diplomatic uses too. Maybe when they add diplomacy to end wars, you could send a diplomat equipped with one of these to increase your chances of success. A furniture version could cause the same effect in an AoE, making enemies less likely to kill your dwarves when nearby, at the cost of slowly making many of your dwarves more merciful.

A pickaxe associated with volcanos that causes a lava tube (probably a lot smaller in diameter than a natural volcano) to rise from the magma sea straight to the surface centered on whatever X/Y location is dug out by the pick, replacing an entire column of the world with magma with an obsidian boundary, as though a volcano had been there all along. 100% kills the user, the artifact is nearly impossible to recover after one use (maybe it could float on magma?) destroys a lot of ore, could easily destroy your fort, but could straight up delete an army when you first create it, it gives you access to magma forges/smelters/kilns, and lets you build magma mega projects/defenses if you didn't embark on a volcano to begin with. Pretty hard to generalize this, maybe military dwarves could be instructed to just "use magic from [X Artifact]" on command, letting you use the same effect with any held or worn volcano artifact. Volcano associated furniture would probably need a whole different effect (maybe just the oceans effect but with magma instead).

And then there's some really fucking weird spheres like "Pregnancy". Uh, maybe a sword associated with pregnancy that causes the victim to spontaneously give birth right there on the spot, and flee with the baby rather than fight any longer? That artifact might be too weird for dwarf fortress. A more reasonable one would be piece of furniture that induces pregnancy in livestock nearby, even if there's no males about. That's lots of free food, but could potentially lead to a cat grey goo scenario. For bonus fun, make it so dwarves are also affected by it, and you need to be careful to make sure that dwarf exposure is kept to a minimum to prevent too many children from being born. Pregnancy associated clothing would be less useful. Maybe you could stick it on your strongest dwarf for a dwarven eugenics breeding program. Even then you'd need the offspring to magically age faster for it to be useful. Doesn't matter if you have 30 incredibly strong dwarves if it takes longer than the average fort's lifespan for them to be old enough to wield a sword.

There's just so many possibilities, and that's JUST artifacts. The magic system they've proposed is incredibly ambitious.
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2018, 09:56:20 pm »

That last one could be related to your healing one instead. Rather than inducing pregnancy, it just alleviates the risks of pregnancy for those who are already there, or works as a fertility charm for those trying. Like a couple "sleeps" in the magic bed, and boom, they conceive. If they keep the bed, it gets rid of any risk of issues arising so that the child is born healthy.

There's a lot of spheres and a lot of potential. And Toady is 100% devoted to simulating things, so it's not going to end up as some lazy copy of other limited magic. We're going to see mages in magic worlds really getting a variety of roles. Sometimes if the magic is easy to use, they'll be the centerpiece/everyone will be a mage. Sometimes the magic will have heavy costs and only the most devoted will master it. It really will show a variety.
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Bumber

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2018, 01:05:51 am »

A pickaxe associated with volcanos that causes a lava tube (probably a lot smaller in diameter than a natural volcano) to rise from the magma sea straight to the surface centered on whatever X/Y location is dug out by the pick, replacing an entire column of the world with magma with an obsidian boundary, as though a volcano had been there all along. 100% kills the user, the artifact is nearly impossible to recover after one use (maybe it could float on magma?) destroys a lot of ore, could easily destroy your fort, but could straight up delete an army when you first create it, it gives you access to magma forges/smelters/kilns, and lets you build magma mega projects/defenses if you didn't embark on a volcano to begin with. Pretty hard to generalize this, maybe military dwarves could be instructed to just "use magic from [X Artifact]" on command, letting you use the same effect with any held or worn volcano artifact. Volcano associated furniture would probably need a whole different effect (maybe just the oceans effect but with magma instead).
This one's kind of absurdly broken. The effect needs to happen more slowly, like raising the column by one z-level each use.
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forfor

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2018, 03:18:35 am »

How about a hammer related to farming?
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KittyTac

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2018, 03:46:09 am »

Move this to DF General Discussion, please.
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KittyTac

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2018, 09:13:31 am »

I would mod in a dragon made of adamantine with the power to set everything in sight on fire that is outsider controllable. Because sometimes you want to watch the world burn.
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Rowanas

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2018, 08:58:22 am »

I am as much a fan of ritual magic in DF as I hate it in rpgs.  I would very much like for Dwarves to have to gather together in specially designated rooms to perform lengthy rituals focused on certain spheres, and for them to make demands (like the current mood system) or you assign the various components (consider the sphere of pain, use a goblin as the centrepiece, zircons and emeralds as foci). If a scribe is allowed into the ritual room with paper, they'll write down each of the steps and these will become books of magic rituals which your dwarves may reattempt (and the outcome of which you already know). The whole thing should be procedural, of course, so sometimes you'll discover the ritual of accidentally making people pregnant, and other times it'll be the ritual of encouraging random goblins in your fort (hopefully invaders) to become so depressed that they wander the map morosely or start wrecking things.
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KittyTac

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Re: Magic?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2018, 09:38:13 am »

I am as much a fan of ritual magic in DF as I hate it in rpgs.  I would very much like for Dwarves to have to gather together in specially designated rooms to perform lengthy rituals focused on certain spheres, and for them to make demands (like the current mood system) or you assign the various components (consider the sphere of pain, use a goblin as the centrepiece, zircons and emeralds as foci). If a scribe is allowed into the ritual room with paper, they'll write down each of the steps and these will become books of magic rituals which your dwarves may reattempt (and the outcome of which you already know). The whole thing should be procedural, of course, so sometimes you'll discover the ritual of accidentally making people pregnant, and other times it'll be the ritual of encouraging random goblins in your fort (hopefully invaders) to become so depressed that they wander the map morosely or start wrecking things.
I'd also roll for this system when I want some variety.
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