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Author Topic: Stress & Pysche: 44.11+  (Read 51567 times)

Immortal-D

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Stress & Pysche: 44.11+
« on: June 27, 2018, 05:51:36 pm »

Edit: As this has become a proper discussion, I have compiled all observations and findings below for easy reading.  Any suggestions are welcome.  You can find the original post at the bottom.

*Please note* I am attempting to keep this list as comprehensive as possible.  However, for the sake of not quoting an entire thread, I am limiting this to categories of information and extremely specific findings.  This list will not include every single detail, and it's quite possible that I missed something important.  If you feel there is some information which should be added here, please let me know.

General Information

- Almost everything that counts as a happy thought has a corresponding unhappy thought if not met.
- Captain Of The Guard may be bugged; increasing stress for no reason.
- As of 44.12, stress-reducing effects still seem underpowered compared to stress accumulation, due to the sheer variety of effects.
- 'Caught in the rain' and 'Choked on (disgusted by) miasama' are currently the strongest personality changers, sometimes causing multiple core values to be rewritten.  **Exception** Dwarves with 'Love of nature' are less prone to outdoors stress, possibly even immune (cave adaptation not withstanding).
- Possible that cave adaptation is much stronger now.  Not the specific effects, but rather the Dwarves' reaction to those effects, vis a vie memory.  Same issue with exposure to the elements in general (rain, snow, sun).
- Most Dwarves react to sentient corpses with 'feeling uneasy' (but some are straight up 'horrified').  The relative effect of this feeling is variable.  However, the effect does stack (see next point)
- The amount of time required to clean up a battle is a big contributor to stacking the negative effects of seeing corpses.  For example, a Dwarf picking up 10 different body parts will make 10 trips, 1 per part.  Each time, the Dwarf will potentially get 'feels uneasy/horrified after seeing a corpse.
- 'Took joy in slaughter' is exceedingly rare.
- It is possible to have a Dwarf with 'doesn't really care about anything anymore' without being completely insane, though often stress for that Dwarf is still quite high.
- Many dwarves, both military and civilian, seem to have good thoughts about seeing justice enacted on criminals.  However, the criminal in question will never 'repent', as it were, and simply becomes even more unhappy.
- Alcohol poisoning due to assigning a Tavern Keeper is possibly fixed for large populations
- As a important note, managers & nobles with [MEET_WORKERS] DO work to conduct meetings and de-stress dwarves a bit from red (yelled at) and yellow arrows (crying on) needs but all dwarves without migrated & embark assigned social skills (or newly born children) will not develop enough to replace experts possessing CONSOLER & PACIFIER skills.
- DFHack: The happiness GUI in the bottom right is inaccurate.  For specific stress levels, use Dwarf Therapist
- Children are categorically the loneliest having no recognition of even other children, but Toady can't test this because of how long they take to grow up (given that many of his tests are on the starting 7 with already developed skills), many users I've read about have lonely children because the problems are fortress home-grown.
- Cooking a favorite booze counts towards 'decent meals' thought.
- Possible that a sufficiently large Meeting area with lots of furniture (like a Tavern) will overwhelm any social time.  The Dwarves spend 5x admiring the furniture, then go back to work.
- Regarding 'Focus' and lack thereof (unfocused due to unmet needs);
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
- More personality change causes & effects;
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
- If an injured Dwarf is given a high-quality treatment item like a splint, this might count towards 'acquisition' and 'extravagance' needs.
- Some data mining on overall stress increases;
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
- Possible that if a Dwarf does not have any hauling labors, they will never voluntarily equip trinkets (they do still seek out new clothes though)
- Stress accumulation may actually be occurring at a normal rate.  The problem is that stress-reducing activities are significantly less effective
- When a unit socializes with another, either because one/both are idle or are socializing in a tavern zone, the "rank" counter in their relationship increments by one or more. When the counter hits 15, they become friends or grudges. It's possible for a unit to socialize several times per in-game day. Unknown if the number is influenced by the personality of the talker or listener. Range seems to be 1-4 per in-game day.
-  Dwarves will only interact with units on N,S,E,W adjacent tiles. They ignore units in the same and diagonally adjacent tiles.  A "socializing" unit WILL socialize (increase rank) with other busy dwarves if the busy dwarves aren't moving. Tested individuals busy with a pumpstack, a library, and a temple. All of them were repeatedly able to form friendships.
- 'Millbuilding' (dfhack named idle activity) drives dwarves to occupy a area even in the most mundane of circumstances, as they while actually standing up don't do much so long as there's a chair or walkable piece of furniture to seat upon wherein they will prefer to stop.  Without a chair/walkable furniture (like another museum pedestal) dwarves wont hold attention there long enough and instantly shift position after a tick, constantly erratically moving about. This might also attribute to why they don't talk so much.  Possible that this is crossover code from Toady messing with nobles on foreign sites to make them sit at their offices for the player to see in adventure mode, and that it has transferred with the global offsite meeting room behavior than previous 30. versions, Dwarves were never noted to be sitters.

Unhappy Thoughts; Strategies & Observations

- Away from people / Unable to take it easy / Unable to make merry / Being away from friends / No time off <- Dwarves do not socialize at random anymore.  Socializing must be forced with a Burrow.  This is a big one; Dwarves do not develop friendships simply by passing each other during jobs anymore. They will work themselves to the point of 'haggard & drawn', so creating a proper Meeting Hall (ideally on top of your Dining Hall or Tavern) is essential, as is forcing them to stay there for a time.
- Unoccupied. <- dorfs need work.
- Unexciting life / Unable to fight / Unable to practice a martial art. <- Many Dorfs like trouble, get them in the military.  Note; these needs are not exclusive against crafting & acquiring needs.  Therefore, a balanced training schedule is now required.  I recommend 2-3 months training followed by 1 month 'no orders' (but still Active Duty).  Make sure your military has some crafting labors enabled.  Also consider making a cloak or pants part of the uniform to get the acquisition needs, since military don't equip trinkets.
- Lack of trouble-making <- Although military service can fulfill this need, a simple Tavern brawl works as well.
- Unable to aquire something <- a dedicated stockpile for trinkets like crowns & rings will help here.  Note that military Dwarves don't equip trinkets (see above)
- Lack of decent meals <- Related to favorite foods, regardless of meal quality.
- Unable to argue. <- A library might fulfill this need, further testing required.  Otherwise, arguments happen randomly when Dwarves socialize.
- Not learning anything. <- Library is the obvious choice (reading books counts as learning), but a new skill might also work.
- Unable to help anybody. <- Can only be fulfilled by helping injured Dwarves
- Unable to admire art. <- Liberal placement of statues & engraving will take care of this
- Unable to practice a craft / Unable to practice a skill. <- Lots of dorfs need a craft job, over a few years this one gets bad.  Make sure that your military Dwarves having a crafting labor enabled.
- Unable to pray <- Temples, just so important. Not at all optional, it's a big happy thought and they hate not getting it.
- If a chair is adjacent to a occupied museum in a zone, they'll observe the seat, then the objects in a immediate 3x3 around them leading to a big dump of positive thoughts at once, therefore all personal dwarf rooms should have a chair centre & a dining table (to avoid no table bad thoughts when they attempt to eat), but this actually minimizes the maximum amount of space and designs you can make for a dwarf to acknowledge, though 3x3's are quite basic and also spacious for a single dwarf and family when well outfitted. (Chair/Museum Pedestal - Display case = 1 tick)(Chair/Museum Pedestal - Display Case - Museum Display = 2 or more ticks)

------------------------------------------
OP: I'm slowly inching my ways towards investing in a proper Fortress.  Before I commit though, I'm insanely curious how the Dorfs are dealing with the occasional tooth or severed limb.  I can normally work around any unexpected !FUN! in new versions, but the perpetual insanity of the last version was a deal breaker for me.  So, any info on the new Dwarven pysche would be appreciated.
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« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 08:07:47 am by Immortal-D »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2018, 06:04:44 pm »

No-one's reported that the update didn't work, so presumably it's OK now.
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DoktaYut

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2018, 07:23:02 pm »

Trauma pileup is apparently no longer happening, with "saw a corpse" thoughts toned down a lot for strangers and non-dwarves and memory being spread out rather than all used up by corpse sightings.

I did see one case of one dwarf that despite a ton of positive thoughts and only a couple annoyed ones from rain was still stressed out, so it's possible some dwarves just aren't happy with anything. But that seems more like a feature.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2018, 10:03:40 pm »

Trauma pileup is apparently no longer happening, with "saw a corpse" thoughts toned down a lot for strangers and non-dwarves and memory being spread out rather than all used up by corpse sightings.

I did see one case of one dwarf that despite a ton of positive thoughts and only a couple annoyed ones from rain was still stressed out, so it's possible some dwarves just aren't happy with anything. But that seems more like a feature.
Yeah, it would be pretty pointless if we were back to 44.09 broken stress.
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tussock

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2018, 04:10:44 am »

I've still got a couple annoying fisherdorfs (out of about 20) who super hate getting rained on and also super hate not getting to go fishing, who happen to married to extremely useful legend dorfs so I don't want to expel them. I think they're just natural complainers, and one of them was also prone to tantrums and killing people's pet dogs.

That one had an unfortunate accident, but her widower does nothing but sit around crying all day now. So that didn't really help. The other one is the baron consort, so, yeah. Maybe I have to figure out an underground fishery after all.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2018, 04:18:40 am »

I've still got a couple annoying fisherdorfs (out of about 20) who super hate getting rained on and also super hate not getting to go fishing, who happen to married to extremely useful legend dorfs so I don't want to expel them. I think they're just natural complainers, and one of them was also prone to tantrums and killing people's pet dogs.

That one had an unfortunate accident, but her widower does nothing but sit around crying all day now. So that didn't really help. The other one is the baron consort, so, yeah. Maybe I have to figure out an underground fishery after all.
Yes. That scenario sounds like exactly the right level of balance for an interesting fortress (I assume in their last job they were given umbrellas...). Can you override long term rain thought stress with temple bliss?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2018, 05:44:48 am »

:
That one had an unfortunate accident, but her widower does nothing but sit around crying all day now. So that didn't really help. The other one is the baron consort, so, yeah. Maybe I have to figure out an underground fishery after all.
Or convert the above ground fishing spots to dwarf friendly environments with access tunnels and roofs.
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Witty

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2018, 10:52:47 am »

I'm still seeing roughly two-thirds of my fort in trauma due to cleaning up the aftermath of a siege. But I feel this is just the new normal, and I've got no qualms with that. It is kinda weird though that the aftermath of the ambush battle is much, much worse than the battle itself.

Any tips on disposing of sentient corpses en masse without traumatizing the whole fort?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 10:59:42 am by Witty »
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Baffler

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2018, 11:53:12 am »

I'm still seeing roughly two-thirds of my fort in trauma due to cleaning up the aftermath of a siege. But I feel this is just the new normal, and I've got no qualms with that. It is kinda weird though that the aftermath of the ambush battle is much, much worse than the battle itself.

Any tips on disposing of sentient corpses en masse without traumatizing the whole fort?

If they're outside pumping magma up to the surface might solve the problem. Or you could just ignore them. If they're somewhere out of the way there's not really any reason to pick them up at all unless you need to melt down their equipment or you're worried about kobolds.
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Werdna

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2018, 01:46:20 pm »

Any tips on disposing of sentient corpses en masse without traumatizing the whole fort?

Perhaps turn your military into civvies during the later months of a season, when invasions don't occur, and use them for corpse-hauling.  They typically are hardened to death.
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Saiko Kila

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2018, 03:09:23 pm »

Main reason of removing corpses is preventing caravan freak-out. Unless it doesn't happen anymore in v0.44.11.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2018, 04:23:56 pm »

Main reason of removing corpses is preventing caravan freak-out. Unless it doesn't happen anymore in v0.44.11.
Apparently it still does according to some. But my human wagons seem happy to plow through the mounds of goblin and elf parts outside my depot so it's at least toned down from previous years.
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Immortal-D

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2018, 04:54:14 pm »

I appreciate the feedback :)  Sounds like freak-outs are working as intended now.  The potential for caravans to accept a bit of gore is welcome indeed.

Ispil

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2018, 05:45:32 pm »

On the same note, are there any particularly worrysome bugs in the current version that have come up?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2018, 09:13:22 pm »

On the same note, are there any particularly worrysome bugs in the current version that have come up?
Messengers are a bit dodgy, banishing doesn't work for dorfs whose children are off-site (presumably being tortured by goblins somewhere). Some of the personality quirks are a bit unbalanced, but kind of funny "I was rained on, I now shun the company of others!".

So nothing too serious. Although I'm now getting stutter lag when I wasn't before. So whatever the fix was for curing it in others, seems to have backfired on mine. Oh well.
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