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Author Topic: Stress & Pysche: 44.11+  (Read 14847 times)

Robsoie

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2018, 06:08:58 am »

So far in my 44.11 it's 0 too despite we're on year 10 and the tavern has been running for a long long time ( 1 tavern keeper and 1 performer working there), i'm rather surprised considering how many dwarves dropped dead in the tavern of my previous 44.10 fortress.
Maybe Toady did some adjustement there too ?

Got my bookkeeper becoming haggard, the first dwarves in the last 2 years. I guess near 10 years in counting the stocks may not help, though the description had him happy in his work, so i'm unsure what did the problem, anyways, a recently conquered dark pit has now a new bookkeeper coming their way.

Still puzzled on how to have dwarves making friends or even even marrying in current version to solve their "lonely" "far from family" bad thoughts/stress, despite they're all close to each other in several meeting locations since those 10 years ....
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 06:16:05 am by Robsoie »
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tussock

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2018, 06:30:26 am »

Oh, and someone asked me if unmet needs cause stress instead of just losing focus, from what I can find ...

Unfocused dorfs take longer, possibly much longer, to do their work and thus have less free time to get around everything, and meeting a need always gives some degree of happy thought to reduce stress. So if you're not meeting each need regularly, you're missing all those stress reducers. Each unmet need may or may not give a particular bad thought up top depending on personality, but each is certainly missing out on regular good thoughts, because it only shows the ones they get good thoughts from. Plus, the time thing is killing their social life.

And empirically, all my sad dorfs are unfocused and have a lot of unmet needs. Or did until that civil war happened, now it's just who saw how many of the 130 dead dorfs, and who's had family get slaughtered in the main stairwell. :D
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2018, 07:45:19 am »

My understanding of trinket grabbing is that the main method by which dorfs claim trinkets is by hauling them, in which case the ones wearing trinkets should mainly be the ones with trinket hauling enabled (whatever hauler category that is). I haven't investigated that claim personally, though.
When grabbing trinkets was introduced, there was a bug that cause dorfs to grab other items they liked, like pots made of particular materials they liked, and other heavy things. One of the amusing side effects of introducing a new system.
Was just watching my stressed dwarf in the tavern. She has no labours enabled, but she just suddenly generated a pickup equipment job. Wandering off to the clothes pile she grabbed an elven cloak went off to her room and got changed. Now she's real happy about trying on a superior item.

Shouldn't be too hard to get trinket lovers to do that too.

A bit worried about my dorf though. Almost everything she's wearing is sized for elves. Probably coincidence. Last bunch of clothes came in as part of an elf ambush.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2018, 09:14:32 am »

Quote
Yes, unfortunately it looks like captain of the guard position is oddly hyper stressful for no obvious reason for any dwarves after a couple of years.

And most of those don't seem to be linked to any "gob dying" memory, the most negative are "feeling lonely" (it looks like those meeting hall aren't really working, dwarves don't seem to gain much friendship anymore) and there are a lot of positive source of thoughts, so i have no idea what is really going on for those.
Something i am noticing is that the dwarves don't seem to make friends like they used to in the past, i'm not sure if it's because i've been having some bad luck and all my dwarves are probably generated as complete loners, but on my previous long lived 44.10 depression fort , i noticed too that making friend was actually happening only rarely.

With of course the fortresses having meeting areas that dwarves get into regularly.
Maybe there's also a problem there, as despite i see dwarves going to the meeting halls and sculpture garden, most of them still have the lonely/no family unhappy thought regularly coming.

From my testing, while my reports aren't exactly recognised i can confirm that meeting halls and statue gardens are insufficient because dwarves will be constantly admiring the furniture (x5 times), and they need cramped small rooms out of sight of all furniture within burrows to get the nessecary space away from everything to socialise with only each other around.

This is caused because of a fatal oversight of the needs system to never cap off when full or (overflow) their satedness to starve off the need again, causing dwarves to aggressively and sporadically follow up on strong needs whever they are close to the source of one instead of fill up the need, stop and do something else. DFhack reveals this and two gods and/or double ardent workship makes worshipping a pernament activity (while it is still very exhilarating for them to do so maybe there is a small plus to mentally immune religious dwarves)

> As a important note, managers & nobles with [MEET_WORKERS] DO work to conduct meetings and de-stress dwarves a bit from red (yelled at) and yellow arrows (crying on) needs but all dwarves without migrated & embark assigned social skills (or newly born children) will not develop enough to replace experts posessing CONSOLER & PACIFIER skills.

Children are categorically the lonliest having no recognisation of even other children, but Toady can't test this because of how long they take to grow up (given that many of his tests are on the starting 7 with already developed skills), many users i've read about have lonely children because the problems are fortress home-grown.
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Maul_Junior

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2018, 10:06:54 am »

My understanding of trinket grabbing is that the main method by which dorfs claim trinkets is by hauling them, in which case the ones wearing trinkets should mainly be the ones with trinket hauling enabled (whatever hauler category that is). I haven't investigated that claim personally, though.
When grabbing trinkets was introduced, there was a bug that cause dorfs to grab other items they liked, like pots made of particular materials they liked, and other heavy things. One of the amusing side effects of introducing a new system.
Was just watching my stressed dwarf in the tavern. She has no labours enabled, but she just suddenly generated a pickup equipment job. Wandering off to the clothes pile she grabbed an elven cloak went off to her room and got changed. Now she's real happy about trying on a superior item.

Shouldn't be too hard to get trinket lovers to do that too.

A bit worried about my dorf though. Almost everything she's wearing is sized for elves. Probably coincidence. Last bunch of clothes came in as part of an elf ambush.

Sounds like you better kill the spai, just in case.
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mikekchar

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2018, 10:29:11 am »

For acquiring items needs, I have a trinket stockpile (without bins) and periodically dump it and then reclaim it after it has been dumped.  I have a manager task to make new trinkets when my stockpile isn't full (but just one a day so that I don't end up scheduling 50 new trinkets every time I dump them).  Slightly micro managey but not too bad as long as I remember to do it a few times a season.  It helps if the trinket stockpile is near the dump.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2018, 12:10:27 pm »

For acquiring items needs, I have a trinket stockpile (without bins) and periodically dump it and then reclaim it after it has been dumped.  I have a manager task to make new trinkets when my stockpile isn't full (but just one a day so that I don't end up scheduling 50 new trinkets every time I dump them).  Slightly micro managey but not too bad as long as I remember to do it a few times a season.  It helps if the trinket stockpile is near the dump.
What about having two trinket stockpiles and disable one while enabling the other rather than dumping, or even link them to give one way and then the other? Obviously that won't use refuse hauling, but whatever category trinkets fall into. I tend to have the single dumping target being used for prisoner stripping...
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Robsoie

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2018, 12:21:25 pm »

From my testing, while my reports aren't exactly recognised i can confirm that meeting halls and statue gardens are insufficient because dwarves will be constantly admiring the furniture (x5 times), and they need cramped small rooms out of sight of all furniture within burrows to get the nessecary space away from everything to socialise with only each other around.

This is caused because of a fatal oversight of the needs system to never cap off when full or (overflow) their satedness to starve off the need again, causing dwarves to aggressively and sporadically follow up on strong needs whever they are close to the source of one instead of fill up the need, stop and do something else. DFhack reveals this and two gods and/or double ardent workship makes worshipping a pernament activity (while it is still very exhilarating for them to do so maybe there is a small plus to mentally immune religious dwarves)

Interesting point and it makes sense as it could explain why the "socializing" action is happening so rarely in my taverns despite the dwarves are often going there to drink, there's enough high quality statues, tables and chairs in there so they are maybe focusing only on them instead of the other dwarves.

I'll have to design a completely empty meeting hall zone and see if the lack of anything in it can lead to have those dwarves finally interacting like they were doing in older versions of DF, because it's rather disapointing on a 10+ years old fortress with lots of places designed to make the dwarves socializing with each other and see after all those years the heavy majority are still "passing acquintances", no friendship , no grudge seems to generate out of the starting ones they had when they came to your fortresses.


edit : works great for ... the animals that are all gathering to meet&greet at the meeting designated zone in the empty room i just ordered mined.
Unfortunately none of the dwarves is putting a foot in there, temple/tavern/library are too attractive in comparison :/ (the off duty soldiers are even prefering to spare by themselves on their free time than actually going to a meeting zone :D )
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 01:01:58 pm by Robsoie »
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Sver

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2018, 01:13:11 pm »

edit : works great for ... the animals that are all gathering to meet&greet at the meeting designated zone in the empty room i just ordered mined.
Unfortunately none of the dwarves is putting a foot in there, temple/tavern/library are too attractive in comparison :/ (the off duty soldiers are even prefering to spare by themselves on their free time than actually going to a meeting zone :D )

Perhaps, try out designating a meeting area from a statue placed behind an internal door (to hide it from the dwarven eyes) and making that area a part of the tavern?
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anewaname

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2018, 01:21:29 pm »

If dwarfs only claim trinkets due to hauling them, what about a set of 3 or more stockpiles, linked into a circle? If there are enough stockpile tiles combined, and the "make more" job order is not large enough to accidentally fill all the stockpile tiles, there will always be some hauling jobs there to expose dwarfs to trinkets.
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Robsoie

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2018, 02:00:54 pm »

edit : works great for ... the animals that are all gathering to meet&greet at the meeting designated zone in the empty room i just ordered mined.
Unfortunately none of the dwarves is putting a foot in there, temple/tavern/library are too attractive in comparison :/ (the off duty soldiers are even prefering to spare by themselves on their free time than actually going to a meeting zone :D )

Perhaps, try out designating a meeting area from a statue placed behind an internal door (to hide it from the dwarven eyes) and making that area a part of the tavern?
But it's going then back to square 0 , the dwarves will have their eyes on the quality items around and not on the other dwarves.
So far it looks the only socializing i see dwarves doing is in the tavern, but still friendship, grudges and marriage happen very rarely, not really something you can count on to help with the "lonely" and "far from family" stresses.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8584
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Sver

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2018, 02:18:48 pm »

But it's going then back to square 0 , the dwarves will have their eyes on the quality items around and not on the other dwarves.
So far it looks the only socializing i see dwarves doing is in the tavern, but still friendship, grudges and marriage happen very rarely, not really something you can count on to help with the "lonely" and "far from family" stresses.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8584

No, I mean, in that empty room you carved out. Make a 1x2 tile niche with a statue blocked off by a door. Set the door to internal and forbid it, designate a meeting area from the statue, covering the room you prepared. Assign location to the room. The dwarves should treat that room as a tavern and won't be able to see the statue. Not sure about the door, however - it might be a problem. May try to designate the room first and then block the statue off with something else... not sure what, though. Alternatively, you can try to place the statue niche with a door behind a corner of a single-tile corridor. The dwarves will occasionally see the door, but only the ones who walk around the corner.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 02:25:14 pm by Sver »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2018, 04:22:21 pm »

But it's going then back to square 0 , the dwarves will have their eyes on the quality items around and not on the other dwarves.
So far it looks the only socializing i see dwarves doing is in the tavern, but still friendship, grudges and marriage happen very rarely, not really something you can count on to help with the "lonely" and "far from family" stresses.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8584

No, I mean, in that empty room you carved out. Make a 1x2 tile niche with a statue blocked off by a door. Set the door to internal and forbid it, designate a meeting area from the statue, covering the room you prepared. Assign location to the room. The dwarves should treat that room as a tavern and won't be able to see the statue. Not sure about the door, however - it might be a problem. May try to designate the room first and then block the statue off with something else... not sure what, though. Alternatively, you can try to place the statue niche with a door behind a corner of a single-tile corridor. The dwarves will occasionally see the door, but only the ones who walk around the corner.

I probably should have mentioned, but location zones are a issue of their own.

Taverns do work very slowly because every interaction of performing & reacting to it interrupts, long periods of doing nothing is often more beneficial but that impossible to regulate. Temples completely distract through meditation and libraries often cause dwarves to hog books.

Just burrow people inside the plain room set with a activity zone (with some food & ale + mugs for a while) and then in a long corridor leading up to the empty room lock them behind doors outside of sight range. People burrowed with their pets will play with them a bit seperate examples and fortress designs i've tried have showed me with these explicitly 'blank' areas with only maybe natural wall dividers to break up the blank space a bit.

> The idler conversation game logic has always remained the same, but now dwarves have considerably busy lives (running after needs) where they very rarely stand around doing absolutely nothing in null space.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 04:28:48 pm by FantasticDorf »
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Robsoie

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2018, 04:48:22 pm »

Will have to experience with burrows then, as it looks like the only way to keep dwarves in locations.
Hopefully once everyone is in the same small room, socialization can happen faster , as i guess there's then more chance of dwarves  compatible for friendship/grudging/marriage being in the same place.

Ok everyone,


Now socialize ... or else !
:D
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 04:56:55 pm by Robsoie »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Can anyone confirm or otherwise report on the stress fixes in 44.11?
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2018, 05:00:23 pm »

I would have put the door further away two or three tiles down a  hallway from the main area, but yeah, that's essentially what im saying in concept and after a bit (providing they havent all dehydrated to death in a freak accident or a were-beast emerges in the middle of the group) they should slowly get a bit more progress towards social skills & personal relationships.

Its absurd really we have to micromanage every aspect of our dwarves, lets hope Toady finds a solution to address this at some point.
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