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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released  (Read 71306 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2018, 04:07:46 pm »

Yeah, I've stopped bandit gangs I think, but for legitimate site governments I've left it in.  Naturally, 'thriving' isn't tested here -- the game needs to point the market link somewhere.  It was invisibly pointing it at your starter fortresses even before this, way back when we added post wg site conquest.  I just need to get the messenger option up, and also leave the raid option.  I had that as an item for the last release but 'ran out of time' whatever that means.
So the intention is to be able to send messengers and citizens to the new holdings, as well as be able to raid them?

Are goblin (and other hostile) civ sites and sites from civs you're at war with also supposed to join you, or was that removed along with the bandits?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 04:13:45 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Thorfinn

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2018, 11:08:03 am »

"The hamlet of Trusshopped, a half day's travel to the southwest has been conquered and now looks to your thriving economy for it's future prosperity".
Just getting back since, maybe 44.03. Been busy.

Anyway, am I reading too much into it? Will you now see caravans from Trusshopped?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2018, 04:08:36 pm »

"The hamlet of Trusshopped, a half day's travel to the southwest has been conquered and now looks to your thriving economy for it's future prosperity".
Just getting back since, maybe 44.03. Been busy.

Anyway, am I reading too much into it? Will you now see caravans from Trusshopped?
I don't think it effects the caravans. If they were humans and I were dwarves (neither in my case, I'm playing a modded game) their civ would be sending me caravans anyway regardless of the link. We're not at war. I can demand a tribute from them probably, but that doesn't seem to be an automatic option of taking over/accepting an off-site holding.

If they were an enemy civ...probably not? Not sure if enemy civs are still connecting to you in 44.12. In vanilla they wouldn't, simply because goblins and kobolds don't have caravans.

Hmm. Can civs without caravans send tributes at all? Must Science.
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Toady One

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2018, 04:17:43 pm »

So the intention is to be able to send messengers and citizens to the new holdings, as well as be able to raid them?

Are goblin (and other hostile) civ sites and sites from civs you're at war with also supposed to join you, or was that removed along with the bandits?

It's a weird situation; in the future economy, they'd be much more closely tied to you, but they aren't actually occupied.  So something like taking them over, or not bothering (since there'd be no reason if you can send messengers anyway), seems like it'll matter later, but for now, it would just be approximated/faked.

All sites no matter what, as long as they can communicate with you (e.g. not kobolds), get linked up to the closest market site, and that includes goblins, yeah, whether there is a war or not.  This is supposed to *actually* represent something more like incidental peasant neighbor interactions and smuggling and so forth, not an official link, but we aren't close to nuance yet.  We also don't have any nuance in what a 'war' is; is it between governments, cultures, or 'fantasy races'.  That all needs to be much better defined as well, and it doesn't help that the site entity lives partially on top of civilians and partially not.  The status/etc. release is meant to clear this up with some finality.
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petela

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2018, 02:20:25 am »

Why half of my fortress, even my military, is stressed and depressed after seeing the corpses of the enemies? What kind of emo dwarves get horrified over the sight of dismembered hippies and goblins? This doesn't make any sense, if anything they should get good thought about their heroic deeds... it's game breaking in mid term, everyone is wander in sadness, just because of successfully fending off invading hordes... IMHO, if the dead corpse belongs to a civilization in conflict with ours, shouldn't generate bad thoughts. It isn't dwarfy, it's elfish.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 02:22:20 am by petela »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2018, 04:36:45 am »

Why half of my fortress, even my military, is stressed and depressed after seeing the corpses of the enemies? What kind of emo dwarves get horrified over the sight of dismembered hippies and goblins? This doesn't make any sense, if anything they should get good thought about their heroic deeds... it's game breaking in mid term, everyone is wander in sadness, just because of successfully fending off invading hordes... IMHO, if the dead corpse belongs to a civilization in conflict with ours, shouldn't generate bad thoughts. It isn't dwarfy, it's elfish.
In 44.12?
Stress is part of the game, you need to find ways to deal with it. Unlike 44.10 it's not too hard now. And you can even exile any lost causes (most of the time). There shouldn't be that many.

Military dorfs will (if they've got the right kind of military personalities) become numbed to the death around them. Others, like regular peasants, artists and cooks in our human world, will generally feel uncomfortable living surrounded by the bodies of decaying people (even if their governments were "enemies", whatever that might mean). Some will get over it. Those of nervous dispositions probably won't. Don't forget that dwarf attitudes towards elves and goblins are generally made up by fans and don't have much bearing on the actual game in which multi-cultural societies are the norm.

I think, besides the socializing issues that throw it off somewhat, the stress balance is in a good place right now. Just a matter of adding features to reach some of the harder needs.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 04:42:22 am by Shonai_Dweller »
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petela

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2018, 09:15:18 am »

...Don't forget that dwarf attitudes towards elves and goblins are generally made up by fans...
I'm not talking about made up grudges, I am mean when it says WAR in the civs screen.

...multi-cultural societies are the norm.
What's with all this political correctness in an medieval fantasy setting? Multicultural societies, gay marriage, emo dwarves crying over a goblin murderer corpse, is this an adventure game or a real life post modernist liberal sensitivity simulator?

...the stress balance is in a good place right now...
With the introduction of libraries, temples and inn, nobody goes anymore to wells, zoos, statue gardens, and almost none goes to the new museum. Passing near a constructed ☼furniture☼ does not trigger a good thought as it used to. There is no more breaks or parties. So my Urist McLegendaryHammerlord is sad because he couldn't acquire anything lately (when nothing impedes it), lacks decent meals (surrounded by tons of ☼prepared meals☼), was unable to practice a craft (when he has no skill in anything but crushing enemies skulls, and even if i wanted, making him craft stuff implies rearranging all work assignments and millitar schedules), he is sad because he's been away from friend (even after living for 15 years in my fort) and he is horrified after seeing a goblin die. And he is even traumatized further by remembering all this things, and not even his great bedroom helps to offset his depressive feelings.

I want to build mega-projects, fight mega-beasts and squash invaders with unnecessary complex traps, not to micromanage ridiculously fragile metro-sexual dwarf sensitivities. Maybe I'm wrong. Sorry to bother.
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George_Chickens

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2018, 09:59:19 am »

As of 44.12, I haven't had an issue with dwarf emotions that was disproportionate unless their personality gives them bias them to it. I don't think it's an error. Have you attempted to git'gud?  :P
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 10:02:59 am by George_Chickens »
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Sver

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2018, 10:45:12 am »

I want to build mega-projects, fight mega-beasts and squash invaders with unnecessary complex traps, not to micromanage ridiculously fragile metro-sexual dwarf sensitivities. Maybe I'm wrong. Sorry to bother.

Pick an earlier version (one before the needs, or even just the 34.11 one) or add [NOEMOTION] to the dwarf raws. The needs system is still work in progress and there is a lot of weird things about it.
Also, I don't think Toady should or will ever make all dwarves murder-happy against invaders, because that takes away the realism from the simulation DF is trying to achieve. The horror of seeing corpses of people, no matter their origin, is tough shit most modern people never experience outside of Vietnam-themed war movies. Dwarves with high Discipline automatically get desensitized to it, though, so the solution is just not to show those corpses to civilians and their kids. Like IRL.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 10:49:22 am by Sver »
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Witty

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2018, 12:15:37 pm »

What's with all this political correctness in an medieval fantasy setting? Multicultural societies, gay marriage, emo dwarves crying over a goblin murderer corpse, is this an adventure game or a real life post modernist liberal sensitivity simulator

DF doesn't actually simulate multicultural societies, but rather multispecies ones. Any elf in a dwarf civ will  hold the same values as any other dwarf - with a similar level of variance. And the case of overly depressed dwarves is more of a result of dwarves having their personalities completely altered (usually to be more depressed or stress prone) by simple silly things like being rained on. The system is fine, but it just needs some tweaking.

With the introduction of libraries, temples and inn, nobody goes anymore to wells, zoos, statue gardens, and almost none goes to the new museum. Passing near a constructed ☼furniture☼ does not trigger a good thought as it used to. There is no more breaks or parties. So my Urist McLegendaryHammerlord is sad because he couldn't acquire anything lately (when nothing impedes it), lacks decent meals (surrounded by tons of ☼prepared meals☼), was unable to practice a craft (when he has no skill in anything but crushing enemies skulls, and even if i wanted, making him craft stuff implies rearranging all work assignments and millitar schedules), he is sad because he's been away from friend (even after living for 15 years in my fort) and he is horrified after seeing a goblin die. And he is even traumatized further by remembering all this things, and not even his great bedroom helps to offset his depressive feelings.

The huge problem with the needs system right now is that dwarves have absolutely zero initiative to obtain any of their needs. It isn't that the dwarf is willingly not going out and doing stuff they want, it's that they literally can't. It's purely random whether or not the activity they decide to do (which can only occur when they have no labors, since breaks were removed) will actually fulfill their needs. Meal thoughts are also currently busted. These problem will certainly be resolved whenever this system is approached again for development.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2018, 12:39:38 pm »

I always mess with orientation tags because I want my favorite dwarves to get married and dammit I had their whole lives planed out will you just be happy and have kids and be a family gawd

That said it does not bother me that there are other options built in, by default or no.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2018, 04:13:16 pm »

The huge problem with the needs system right now is that dwarves have absolutely zero initiative to obtain any of their needs. It isn't that the dwarf is willingly not going out and doing stuff they want, it's that they literally can't. It's purely random whether or not the activity they decide to do (which can only occur when they have no labors, since breaks were removed) will actually fulfill their needs. Meal thoughts are also currently busted. These problem will certainly be resolved whenever this system is approached again for development.

More abjectly all the needs are centrerd IN some form of room or another, if you dont have the room they wont travel to it, and often they'll get stuck there or will ignore all other things besides whats in that room relevant to their needs (flawed seperately due to bad numerical values constantly ticking down without telling the dwarf to stop when full, will drop even faster if they have bad facets)

Quote from: "petela
Passing near a constructed ☼furniture☼ does not trigger a good thought as it used to. There is no more breaks or parties. So my Urist McLegendaryHammerlord is sad because he couldn't acquire anything lately (when nothing impedes it), lacks decent meals (surrounded by tons of ☼prepared meals☼

Roads still work for passing thoughts because the feet contact the ground when the dwarf runs over it, but the severe shift in system has aged the old systems that are not removed or properly tweaked.

> I think... its time... we let the dwarf AI loose to walk wherever they want off duty rather than coop up specifically in idle zones like good little worker drones, and leave blank idle zones open as a 'suggestion' for socialisation should dwarves want to go there.
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Orkel

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2018, 05:00:52 pm »

Needs fulfillment overall needs some work (hopefully before the Big Wait). Stuff like "was away from friends/family" and "lack of decent meals/drinks" are quite messed up, the away from family one is sometimes impossible to do if the family isn't actually at your fort (but in the world instead). And the food/drink issues were pointed out above.
Acquiring something - needs are also somewhat borked. If I remember correctly they'll only pick something up for themselves if they're hauling said item? Instead of just going to pick something up on their free time.
Also the way the dwarves don't actively seem to try to fulfill their needs is kinda strange. The game should prioritize fulfilling needs if a dwarf is idle (socializing etc). Pick meals and drinks that they like over other stuff. Go pray. Go pick up random finished goods from the stockpiles. Etc.
Even the prayer seems somewhat random - I've had dwarves with red-level prayer distractions taking weeks/months of in-game time to actually go pray at their temple even though they're free (socializing). This is a detriment for military dwarves, where I'll have to keep them off duty for a long time until they fulfill their prayer needs and only then put on training duty again. Or risk depression from unfulfilled need thoughts.

Needs fulfillment and military equipment issues/randomness are probably my biggest pet peeves at the moment.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 05:07:06 pm by Orkel »
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Starver

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2018, 06:08:15 pm »

All sites no matter what, as long as they can communicate with you (e.g. not kobolds), get linked up to the closest market site,
Having chosen .12 as a moment to get back into Adventurer shoes (or chaussurs, at least) I've noticed this wide linking back to one (elven) site in this region from all other places I've been.

(Starting as an animal person¹ in an Elven village, I'm beginning to suspect that it might even be my starting point. Only when I started out, the local elves didn't know where all these things were that they told me about and said that <Dwarf Name> would know, for being well-travelled. But they don't know where <Dwarf Name> is. So I went on a tour of nearby hillocks and chatted with people there with even more quests for me, but none of the ones I wanted to do ('retrieval' ones) were accompanied by relevent location information and these guys didn't even know who could tell me, so <Dwarf Name> probably doesn't frequent these places, or at least keeps a lower/different profile. Anyway, the upshot is that without delving into logs or Legends, maybe, I have no idea which of various places I came from, so when I get some time I may head to the trading place anyway, maybe <Dwarf Name> goes there a lot! More trekking through scrublands and orchards. More getting so hungry I could eat a horse (ironically, I've been killing horses, mostly, for meat, but I'm such a small character, even with above-average stats, that the weight of the butchered horse bits I save to eat later encumbers me somewhat rotten. So I need to thread my way between streams to avoid not getting too thirsty during my slow progress (not yet having found and/or 'liberated' a waterskin). Maybe I should have stuck with weasels and owls of various subspecies...   Anyway, don't mind me, just having fun. Though a dwarven barrow-room is an awfully noisy place, and conversations sometimes get a bit drowned out.)

I'm holding fire until I find out what the market town is like (in proper investigation, rather than "how do I safely get out of this tree?", if that was the same place) but I'm now expecting something interesting. Well, hoping!


¹ I forget what as the game is on the home computer, but something semi-simian for whom Dwarven armour is classed as Large. Not lemur, but that's the only breed that comes to mind right now. Let's say Lemur just for argument's sake, until I find out again...  ;)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 06:10:40 pm by Starver »
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TomiTapio

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.44.12 Released
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2018, 12:40:44 am »

Huh, 4 of my starter 7 died, a few migrants came, and then I was granted a barony while I was at very low wealth and 8 citizens.
Did the barony trigger because a lame cave full of humans (Keeper latin humans) attached themselves to my fort?
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==OldGenesis mod== by Deon & TomiTapio, 0.44.12f August, vanillalike but more races and workshops. Blood spatter stress; whiskey truly cheers you.
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