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Author Topic: Military strategy and better unit planning.  (Read 2684 times)

malvado

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Military strategy and better unit planning.
« on: July 09, 2018, 09:39:10 am »

So a part of the game where've I've had quite some problems in the other versions I've played ( been around 1 and 1/2 year since last  time due to kids ) is particularly the military units and their strategy, sometimes I send the troops to somewhere and 2-3 out of 6 comes first and starts attacking, there's a lack of coordinated group effort and sometimes even when setting up 2 points, one to group and then hopefully to attack, it doesnt happen since some of those soldiers might run off to get water, supplies or just go to sleep.

Has this been changed in the new versions?
Is there better options on how you want your soldiers to form formations?
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Killgoth

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2018, 09:58:59 am »

So a part of the game where've I've had quite some problems in the other versions I've played ( been around 1 and 1/2 year since last  time due to kids ) is particularly the military units and their strategy, sometimes I send the troops to somewhere and 2-3 out of 6 comes first and starts attacking, there's a lack of coordinated group effort and sometimes even when setting up 2 points, one to group and then hopefully to attack, it doesnt happen since some of those soldiers might run off to get water, supplies or just go to sleep.

Has this been changed in the new versions?
Is there better options on how you want your soldiers to form formations?

I do not know about the last several updates so I am not going to address that.  In previous versions soldiers might decide they need to fill their canteen or get more ammo or new socks.  I tend to get around this by sectioning off my fort using doors that can be shut tight and forbidden--this shuts off the option of more wine or new socks when battle is at hand. When forces of darkness enter the map, I put on a civilian alert that calls non-militia to the lower portions of my fort, and activate all of my militia and station them on the upper portion of my forts and I actively watch the doors to the lower portion of the fort to make sure all my military and civilians are on the right side of those doors.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2018, 10:18:37 am »

Better handling of units is on development goal candidates for the current stage we are at (past the villian arc stop-off) along with things like mounts so likely if Toady does turn their attention to it, we'll get a bare-bones system which will be a improvement on either and a follow up bugfix hopefully.

At the current given moment you can only really pre-position dwarves according to speed that they can travel at (and safe distance to fire) by stationing with some fortress architecture to dictate how its going to work.
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malvado

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2018, 10:34:15 am »

Thanks for your answers.
More or less it's like I remember it then , I used some stationing and constructed some "mini stations" with supplies, beds and used them for certain tasks and areas like underground, same above to be more effective.

Still, if you had to gather troops in some areas in larger maps there could be several complications.
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Sver

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2018, 11:32:58 am »

Unit control is pretty poor right now, but there are some ways to improve their behavior using specifically designed passegeways with drawbridges/floodgates/doors to cut off certain parts of them. Here are some of the possible methods:

The simplest, perhaps, is "a frontline", as described by Sethatos, and is best suited for a small (10-20 troops), well-trained, well-equipped military. You make a long passegeway, 5-6 tile wide and position your militias at the very end of it, so that they'd have to fight through the entire invasion before they can get out in the open (which you don't want them to do). You can further improve this tactic by positioning your dwarves in a 5x2 formation using the 'protect burrow' order, behind a floodgate "wall" with a single open door to lure the invaders towards this position: once the enemy is close, pull the lever to open the floodgates and unleash your military.

A bit more intricate, but improvable design is another 5-6 tile corridor, but this time it turns (90 degrees, in any direction where you got space for it) each ~15 tiles, forming sections. At the end of each section you can place a cutting off drawbridge: as the invasion stretches throughout the tunnel, you pull the levers (you need a separate one for each bridge) and divide their forces, so then your militias can deal with each section one by one, getting as much time to rest and recuperate as they need in between. You can improve it for the use of a larger military by adding "formation rooms" (similar to the one you have at the end of the tunnel, for your troops' positioning, but hidden behind a drawbridge instead, as you don't want some troll to mess everything up) at the end of each section in such a way that once the section is cut-off by a bridge and you unleash your main squad(s), you can unleash an additional one (or two) to attack the rear of enemy forces in the same section. If you have ranged troops, you can also expand this corridor upwards and carve fortifications some 1-2 z-levels higher in the end wall of each section: from there, your marksdwarves can ceaslessly fire at the enemy, as long as they got ammo; one important thing to do, though, is to have floodgates/doors/a drawbridge on the same level as fortifications, but outside of them, which can be locked by a lever to stop your markdwarves from firing or being fired at, in case the things go haywire; another important note on markdwarves in general is to make sure they have no melee access to the enemy whatsoever, lest they decide to go in melee once out of ammo. This tactic works well for any kind of military, depending on the improvements you make.

Another alternative is an "ambush tunnel". A 1 tile wide, snake-like corridor that is separated by turns and drawbridges into 10-12 tile long main sections. The main sections are parallel to each other and are connected by 3 or 5 tile long secondary sections. The most important part? The walls of the main sections are two 10x1 drawbridges, with your military squads positioned behind each one in a 10x1 burrow. As the invasion stretchses throughout the tunnel, you lock the section-dividing bridges and then open the wall-bridges. The result is thin lines of 10-12 invaders (sometimes a bit more, due to them crawling occasionally) being attacked from each side by a 10-dwarf squad in full force. Obviously, this tactic works best for a large, melee-oriented military that isn't necessarily well-trainded or well-equipped.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 11:38:08 am by Sver »
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Werdna

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2018, 01:34:21 pm »

The simplest, perhaps, is "a frontline", as described by Sethatos, and is best suited for a small (10-20 troops), well-trained, well-equipped military.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but would like to say that this tactic above works well for any number of squads.  I use it frequently.  As Sethatos mentioned, given well-equipped and trained squads, I find exhaustion or separation becomes your primary killers, and maximizing the number of bodies on the front line alleviates those.  The more bodies you have, the less they will get exhausted (fewer drawn-out 1x1 combats), and the less dangerous it is once they do become exhausted.  Since the dwarves seem to happily fight even when packed multiple to a tile (and with no apparent combat detriment that I can notice), I regularly throw 40-50 dwarves into spaces like these and watch them gobble up large invasion groups like Pacman.  It becomes even more important if you add in enhanced invaders from mods.

Formation-wise, the game just doesn't have anything (yet) besides what amounts to a mob of 5 year olds chasing a ball around a field.  Given that, tactically you want to create the tightest grouping of as many dwarves as possible, and consistently put it up against the most divided up grouping of invaders as possible.  The fun to me is in the fort designs such as the ones Sver mentions, and coming up with clever ways of achieving the ball vs string that I mentioned.
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Sver

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2018, 01:42:16 pm »

I agree with most of what you wrote, but would like to say that this tactic above works well for any number of squads.  I use it frequently.  As Sethatos mentioned, given well-equipped and trained squads, I find exhaustion or separation becomes your primary killers, and maximizing the number of bodies on the front line alleviates those.  The more bodies you have, the less they will get exhausted (fewer drawn-out 1x1 combats), and the less dangerous it is once they do become exhausted.  Since the dwarves seem to happily fight even when packed multiple to a tile (and with no apparent combat detriment that I can notice), I regularly throw 40-50 dwarves into spaces like these and watch them gobble up large invasion groups like Pacman. It becomes even more important if you add in enhanced invaders from mods.

I didn't mean that this tactic is only good for small militias, I just wanted to say that, in my opinion, you can get much more out of a larger military by using more elaborate tactics instead. The frontline tactic will, indeed, still work, but a lot of soldiers will stand rubbing their necks, when, instead, they could've been mowing down enemies from the opposite side at the very same time.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 01:47:43 pm by Sver »
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Werdna

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2018, 02:05:01 pm »

I agree with most of what you wrote, but would like to say that this tactic above works well for any number of squads.  I use it frequently.  As Sethatos mentioned, given well-equipped and trained squads, I find exhaustion or separation becomes your primary killers, and maximizing the number of bodies on the front line alleviates those.  The more bodies you have, the less they will get exhausted (fewer drawn-out 1x1 combats), and the less dangerous it is once they do become exhausted.  Since the dwarves seem to happily fight even when packed multiple to a tile (and with no apparent combat detriment that I can notice), I regularly throw 40-50 dwarves into spaces like these and watch them gobble up large invasion groups like Pacman. It becomes even more important if you add in enhanced invaders from mods.

I didn't mean that this tactic is only good for small militias, I just wanted to say that, in my opinion, you can get much more out of a larger military by using more elaborate tactics instead. The frontline tactic will, indeed, still work, but a lot of soldiers will stand rubbing their necks, when, instead, they could've been mowing down enemies from the opposite side at the very same time.

Hmm, I've lost you here.  Why would the soldiers stand around?  I've never seen that - the moment an invader is in sight, it's go time, whether there is 1 soldier or 100.  Oh - are you thinking they stand around because there is no room (1 dwarf/tile)?  In my experience they will gladly jump into the same tile with another dwarf, and fight stacked on a tile with no combat impediment that I can detect.  In fact sometimes after they kill the last invader they can see, they'll all stand on top of its corpse in one tile momentarily - I like to think they're all taking a quick leak on the corpse.   :o

( Edit: as for more soldiers allowing for more elaborate maneuvers, I certainly agree there! )
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 02:07:39 pm by Werdna »
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Sver

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2018, 02:28:31 pm »

As far as my observations of combat AI go, until the enemy lies on the ground, units (both the defenders and the invaders) avoid stepping on a tile where another standing creature is present (this can also be observed on testing arena by placing two tight packs of troops, of which only the front lines will charge and the rest will weirdly stroll towards the enemy). Indeed, as soon as the first invader looses their leg, the piling up starts. The prone soldiers are then reduced to a crawl until they stand up again (only as soon as there is nobody else on the same tile anymore) and don't advance as fast as their standing comrades, thus, loosing in effectiveness somewhat. Also, prone soldiers are easier to hit, and received hits get double the velocity, but that only matters if the enemy is anything serious, of course.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 02:32:55 pm by Sver »
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Werdna

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2018, 03:21:06 pm »

Hmm.  In my case, I almost always play with Fortress Defense (adds up to a dozen or so invader civs), and one of my most serious annual invaders are War Elephants.  These are freaking massive, and wearing plate armor.  They tend to be armed with blunt weapons, so my legendaries are relying almost entirely on their dodge skills not to perish in these fights as armor is of little help.  Going prone would be a death sentence - these are certainly serious enemies!  Yet I tend to win these combats without a loss; if I do have losses it is because of some sort of instance of a unit separating from the group and getting too much individual attention.  I'd have to see if I have any pre-invasion saves and see if I am imagining the dwarves doubling up in a tile or not - I could swear they do, primarily because I specifically recall cases where I've had 40-50 dwarves amassed in combat yet the screen only displays a dozen or so; they were all piled up on one another when I mouse around with 'k'.

I wonder if what I am observing is a mass case of "dodge" dwarf, where the dwarves have become so dodge-proficient that they begin to occupy each other's spaces readily, and dodging is disregarding the "avoid an occupied space" pathfinding?
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Sver

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2018, 04:00:29 pm »

Well, yeah, it's a complex issue. Regarding dodging, I know adventurers are prohibited to dodge into a tile with a standing creature. I don't know whether or not the AI troops have the same restriction, but, even if they do, they can bypass it by dodging into the same tile in about the same time - which probably happens often in a tight space with lots of dodging units.

I'm not too familiar with Fortress Defense, but unless War Elephants have some serious natural combat skill levels, they would still be pretty weak compared to a legendary level militia. It is entirely possible that your dwarves dodge everything even when prone, if the elephant's attacking skill is Proficient or lower, for example. Actually, I'm not sure whether the dodge skill suffers in any way from being prone - by being "easier to hit" I meant that the attacker gets a bonus to the accuracy roll (when failed, it produces a message like "The Noob Gobbo misses the Superdwarf!", even if there is no dodging involved), but I don't know how much this roll and dodging roll are connected.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 04:02:23 pm by Sver »
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Werdna

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2018, 04:35:30 pm »

I've been playing FD for about ten years now, I can definitely state War Elephants are a serious deal.  It's not the skills in their case, its the extreme size combined with plate armor combined with their numbers.  Legendary dwarves can reliably win in a 1x1 but when there are 100+ WE's you quickly start reaching 2x1 or 3x1 odds (my military tops out at 50 dwarves, or 1/3 the fort).  Against extreme sizes, certain dwarf weapons become fairly ineffectual for killing blows even in the hands of a legendary user - axes and swords in particular.  They can kill, it just takes forever and exhausts the dwarf.  Conversely, extremely large units wielding blunt weapons deal serious damage - if they can land a hit.  However, the War Elephants only have GRASP on their trunks, and these can be sliced off to render them less deadly.  Maces, war hammers, and spears are the only thing that reliably can kill WE's in a reasonable time.  I use a mix of weapons for this reason - axes and swords to distrunk the WE's, and war hammers and spears to finish them.  The WE's take a noticeably longer time to kill compare to smaller invaders, which can lead to exhaustion against a large siege, which leads to potential dead legendaries.  Normally I use the bridge separation technique to divide up a siege to solve the exhaustion problem but in my current fort the challenge is to never 'seal' off any entrance or escape.

How can you tell when a Fortress unit is prone?  I'll keep an eye on that in the next siege.
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Sver

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2018, 04:44:56 pm »

Size matters a lot, but, as you said yourself, only if they land a hit. And the skill difference (attack vs dodge/shield/parry) seems to be the major breaking point for most invaders when it comes to it. Until somebody passes out and becomes unable to protect themselves, that is.

Prone units get a brown background for their tile, it's fairly noticeable in ASCII-like tilesets. Also, tiles flash between different units standing on the same tile - and only one of them can actually stand, the rest are forced to be prone.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 04:46:27 pm by Sver »
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Werdna

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2018, 05:15:29 pm »

Ah, I'm on Phoebus.  I don't think I get the colored backgrounds; or if I do, it's not visually distinct at the zoom I typically use.  I'll look closer or switch to ASCII to confirm.

Agreed re: size and the attack/defend difference, but I think what I am trying to describe about their 'seriousness' has more to do with large units (armored in this case) taking a long time to kill, which makes exhaustion a much greater threat when you multiply all that resilience with siege-like numbers to chew through. 

In any case, this is largely irrelevant to vanilla play where beasts of this size typically come as singles, so I will stop hijacking the thread and try to verify what I've seen. Thanks for the insights Sver!
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mikekchar

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Re: Military strategy and better unit planning.
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2018, 01:08:40 am »

From playing a fair amount of adventure mode, my impression is that when you have a fight, the first hit is crucial.  You get so many debuffs from being injured that unless you are absolutely head and shoulders above your adversary, it will be quite difficult to land a hit again.  So being able to hit is probably more important than size in a lot of ways.  However, the nice thing about size is that it basically negates armour  -- if you hit, you're going to do twisting, etc damage.  Could be really useful if you do not have superior weapons to cut through the armour.
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