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Author Topic: Tea  (Read 14374 times)

Batgirl1

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Re: Tea
« Reply #150 on: December 31, 2018, 07:44:52 pm »

Although actually, the idea of Dorfs socializing over tea and coffee, with heated debates being the nonalcoholic equivalent to a bar-room brawl, does make a nice kind of sense.  The question then becomes what happens if Urist is drinking tea, Thorin is drinking rum, and Dopey is drinking a hot toddy?
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Egan_BW

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Re: Tea
« Reply #151 on: January 01, 2019, 10:49:33 am »

I'd put my money on that being a threesome.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Tea
« Reply #152 on: January 02, 2019, 09:38:43 am »

Yes, sorry, I should have clarified--I was thinking of cured & processed dry tea, meant for sale & transport, as opposed to already-brewed tea ready for immediate consumption. I'd assumed that my use of the word "tamped" would be enough to indicate the distinction (you can't tamp a liquid), but I see I should have spelled it out. Anyway, my point was that if various "tea" recipes have leaves blended together, then DF's current model of food preparation (wherein the added ingredients are treated as decorations on the main ingredient, and have their values multiplied accordingly) would mean that [1] unit of (+tea leaves+, +tea leaves+, +tea leaves+, and +tea leaves+) would cost far more than [4] units of (+tea leaves+). I was just saying that this was silly; 40 leaves' worth of dry tea should always cost the same as 40 leaves' worth of dry tea, no matter how it's grouped.

Unfortunately, it's at this point that my post ceases to have anything to do with tea.

I was arguing that the present system of quality = value does not work very well because according to it a stronger tea is more valuable than a weaker tea to a dwarf, since if quality is a X of the raw materials we end up with an ever huge gap between the value of the two types of tea since the initial resource value is greater. 

Well, well, well! Sounds like somebody finally did some actual research, and didn't like what they found. This must have presented a nice little dilemma for you: If you were unable to unearth any reputable sources that supported your claims, but you did discover several sources that supported mine, you could either
  • Grudgingly admit that you were wrong about something, or
  • Discredit the entire idea of independent sources and expert opinions as something untrustworthy.
By the way, which of these tactics comes closer to the default strategy of Don "Fake News" Trump? Now, granted, I'll be the first to say that you, GoblinCookie, are FAR more intelligent than he is. (I realize that that's incredibly faint praise, but hey, what do you expect from me, right?  ;)) But there's another similarity, as well: You both strongly believe a number of things which are objectively and provably false, and will stubbornly cling to those beliefs in spite of all evidence to the contrary. (Perhaps that's what motivates my personal grudge against you: Fighting you feels so much like fighting him.)

Well, guess what; I'm calling your bluff. You say that experts can be cherry-picked to back up practically any viewpoint? Well then, you'd better have some references that are more reputable than your own ass, which is literally the only source you've cited so far. I have my own, of course, but have refrained from mentioning them simply because, as I keep saying, the debate does NOT belong in this thread.

Speaking of which: I was going to bring up my old threat about taking our ongoing rivalry and moving it to its own thread, which would be located somewhere more appropriate, like General Discussion. But in GD's Forum Guidelines, I see that Rule #1 is "Do not pick a fight," which is directly against the nature of what would literally be a SixOfSpades vs. GoblinCookie thread. So I admit I'm a bit unsure of where to continue . . . which is the only reason I'm talking so much about it here. What do you think--should we move this to a PM, with the eventual loser agreeing to come back out in public, and metaphorically heap dung upon his head?

I think you and I have a very different philosophy and it time to switch to PM.
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Tea
« Reply #153 on: January 02, 2019, 05:11:18 pm »

Syndrome Associate with Tea: Argumentativeness.  Dwarfs who consume too much tea will begin shouting at each other about politics, rumor verification, and cannibalistic rabbits.
Hmmm . . . a "Debate" interaction sounds like a very good wrinkle to fold into the School/Academy addition. Scholars could debate the niceties of whatever branch of science they're researching, Priests could debate points of theology, etc. The longer/more spirited the debate, and the higher the average Analytical Ability of the participants, the better the odds that they will eventually arrive at the correct answer.


I think you and I have a very different philosophy and it time to switch to PM.
Too late. I've decided that, since my primary aim in correcting you was to prevent your teaching the other forum members things that aren't true, it would be an equal disservice to them if I concealed the actual science behind a PM wall. So I'm compromising by posting in the thread, but using a spoiler tag. Those readers who wish to learn why GoblinCookie is wrong can click the spoiler, while those who only want to concern themselves with tea are welcome to scroll right on past.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Egan_BW

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Re: Tea
« Reply #154 on: January 02, 2019, 10:19:21 pm »

Too late. I've decided that, since my primary aim in correcting you was to prevent your teaching the other forum members things that aren't true, it would be an equal disservice to them if I concealed the actual science behind a PM wall. So I'm compromising by posting in the thread, but using a spoiler tag. Those readers who wish to learn why GoblinCookie is wrong can click the spoiler, while those who only want to concern themselves with tea are welcome to scroll right on past.

Ah, so you admit that the purpose of you not taking it to PMs is a need to prove in front of everyone here that you are smarter than GC~
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Tea
« Reply #155 on: January 03, 2019, 10:23:57 am »

Ah, so you admit that the purpose of you not taking it to PMs is a need to prove in front of everyone here that you are smarter than GC~
Mmm, nah, if I felt a "need" to thrash him in public, I wouldn't have offered to move it to a PM in the first place. The only thing(s) that needed to be seen were either the actual facts of the scientific points under debate, and/or GoblinCookie's full retraction & admission of error. I would most likely have been content arguing the matter in private--IF he had actually wanted to argue. Instead, I opened my PM inbox & got only a face full of his fatuous navel-gazing upon the nature of truth. So, since he clearly was never going to give a public retraction, I felt obliged to give him a good public schooling.
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Calidovi

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Re: Tea
« Reply #156 on: January 03, 2019, 06:58:22 pm »

should tea fall under cooking, or would it be better suited under a medical skill? i think the inclusion of tea precipitates the inclusion of other syndrome-causing drugs.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 07:06:19 pm by Calidovi »
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Rowanas

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Re: Tea
« Reply #157 on: January 04, 2019, 10:19:16 am »

should tea fall under cooking, or would it be better suited under a medical skill? i think the inclusion of tea precipitates the inclusion of other syndrome-causing drugs.

I would include them all under brewing or farmer-related tasks. At the moment we've got an arbitrary distinction between alcohol and all other substances, which makes this sort of thinga bit of a peculiarity.

SixofSpades, I disagree with both you and GoblinCookie on "if the conclusion reached by logical extension of a premise is incorrect, so to is the premise" because it is logically true but very unhelpful in normal discourse, where the enumeration of all the tiny footnotes is purely a matter of nitpicking, rather than any kind of aid to the discourse itself in most situations.  So my disagreement is that it is generally and practically unhelpful, rather than false.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Tea
« Reply #158 on: January 05, 2019, 08:34:43 am »

Too late. I've decided that, since my primary aim in correcting you was to prevent your teaching the other forum members things that aren't true, it would be an equal disservice to them if I concealed the actual science behind a PM wall. So I'm compromising by posting in the thread, but using a spoiler tag. Those readers who wish to learn why GoblinCookie is wrong can click the spoiler, while those who only want to concern themselves with tea are welcome to scroll right on past.

As we both agreed, the DF suggestions forum is not the place to talk in-depth about the nature of biology.  Maybe someone should report you for deliberately derailing a thread?  I will respond to your 'why I am wrong points' only by PM, I'm saying this in case people think that I cannot respond or have no interest in doing so.  I've already amply demonstrated why Six of Spades is talking nonsense, so I don't really need

Ah, so you admit that the purpose of you not taking it to PMs is a need to prove in front of everyone here that you are smarter than GC~
Mmm, nah, if I felt a "need" to thrash him in public, I wouldn't have offered to move it to a PM in the first place. The only thing(s) that needed to be seen were either the actual facts of the scientific points under debate, and/or GoblinCookie's full retraction & admission of error. I would most likely have been content arguing the matter in private--IF he had actually wanted to argue. Instead, I opened my PM inbox & got only a face full of his fatuous navel-gazing upon the nature of truth. So, since he clearly was never going to give a public retraction, I felt obliged to give him a good public schooling.

So you now openly admit to deliberately derailing a thread? 

Those aren't facts, those are the opinions of various biologists that wrote books.  What you call the fatuous naval-gazing is the whole problem, you refuse to understand that mere opinions are not facts.  In other words you really love this particular fallacy.  If you were interested in facts, you would be interested in the 'fatuous naval-gazing' because they concern how we distinguish facts from opinions.  A fact is not the opinion of some clever person, or a lot of clever people; a fact is something that is or is not the case by necessity, that is to say it is not possible for it to be wrong. 

should tea fall under cooking, or would it be better suited under a medical skill? i think the inclusion of tea precipitates the inclusion of other syndrome-causing drugs.

Tea would fall under cooking, because boiling water and adding things is pretty much a staple of many recipes.  It is certainly does not fall under medicine, because there really is no similarity between making tea and most medicine skills, unless medicine is supposed to mean making medicine instead of administering it.  Making medicine may fall under cooking or chemistry depending upon the nature of medicine. 
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therahedwig

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Re: Tea
« Reply #159 on: January 05, 2019, 09:21:10 am »

So, hey, I actually do want to talk about goddamn tea. As in the darned soaking of dried plants into hot water and drinking the resulting concoction and related industries. As someone who has been waiting for the thread to rerail, neither of you two have been keeping on topic, so don't go claiming moral high ground on thread derailment.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Tea
« Reply #160 on: January 05, 2019, 10:21:34 am »

So, hey, I actually do want to talk about goddamn tea. As in the darned soaking of dried plants into hot water and drinking the resulting concoction and related industries. As someone who has been waiting for the thread to rerail, neither of you two have been keeping on topic, so don't go claiming moral high ground on thread derailment.

The difference is he is in some kind of crusade against me, but I'm not in a crusade against him. 
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Starver

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Re: Tea
« Reply #161 on: January 05, 2019, 12:29:30 pm »


G'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan...
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KittyTac

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Re: Tea
« Reply #162 on: January 06, 2019, 06:02:22 am »

Chill.

Chill.

...now, can we go back to discussing tea?
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therahedwig

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Re: Tea
« Reply #163 on: January 06, 2019, 07:14:54 am »

Are you guys hinting we should discuss icetea? :p

Okay, so we've got...

Alcoholic plant based drinks.

Non-alcoholic plant based drinks from fruit: Juice.

Non-alcoholic plant based drinks from herbs and spices: Coffee, Tea, Tisanes(Herbal Tea) and Hot Chocolate.

Animal extract based drinks: Milk, Yoghurt, Lassi.

Water.

So maybe we could talk about combining these somehow?
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Tea
« Reply #164 on: January 06, 2019, 12:57:46 pm »

should tea fall under cooking, or would it be better suited under a medical skill? i think the inclusion of tea precipitates the inclusion of other syndrome-causing drugs.
Tea would fall under cooking, because boiling water and adding things is pretty much a staple of many recipes.  It is certainly does not fall under medicine, because there really is no similarity between making tea and most medicine skills, unless medicine is supposed to mean making medicine instead of administering it.  Making medicine may fall under cooking or chemistry depending upon the nature of medicine.
The grey area between the disciplines is rather large, both in techniques and in terms of historical time. Tea falls under the "seasoning" aspect of Cooking (which of course doesn't really exist yet), because like other herbs, it's collected and consumed in quantities far too small to satisfy hunger, all it can really do is provide flavor. But I disagree with tea being unlike medicines: Many healthful herbs are delivered via infusion, and compounding the precise ratios of such plants would definitely fall under the Medical purview. If anything like the Innovations plan is ever developed, I would place Tea as a discovery that could be unlocked by a Cook or an Herbalist/Herbologist.


Are you guys hinting we should discuss icetea?
Why not? If cold biomes can/should produce cultures that value hot drinks, certainly ice would be a valuable luxury commodity in warmer climes.
Quote
Okay, so we've got...
Don't forget alcoholic milk drinks, like kumis and kefir. And upcoming cavern strangeness might also produce strange new beverages, as well.

Non-tea-related stuff:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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