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Space-Time

2 (14.3%)

Hammer Time

3 (21.4%)

Time...to die.

6 (42.9%)

Peanut Butter Jelly Time

3 (21.4%)

Total Members Voted: 14

[Madman198237]

So, the idea that the Armored Sled does what powered armor would do is horribly wrong, sorry Yami. Similarly, there's no reason that we can't utilize cover and concealment both, and it'd be first-rate stupid to trade all hope of concealment in favor of additional cover.

The CEK is an overachieving revision at best and purely wasteful at worst---we don't want shields on the frontline, and we don't want to be digging trenches on the frontline either. And even bothering to provide provision for unarmored Mountain Suits to engage in melee combat with hostile forces is....yeah, it's pretty insanely stupid. Unarmored guys fighting in melee went out of style a thousand years ago or more, quit trying to bring it back.

The Devastator is now kind of funny, but still probably not as useful as a simple field gun would be. Also, we don't have functional armor yet, so you're putting the cart before the horse. First figure out what it can carry, then design something to fit the armor.

LFG-13 Light Field Gun (non-motorized)
The LFG-13 is a direct-fire, 40mm artillery piece. It is built to lie extremely close to the ground, with a small gun shield covering two crewmen sitting or crouching next to the gun. It has a long barrel for its size, giving time for its Gavrillium gunpowder to propel solid shot, Gavrillium incendiary (Gavrillium casing filled with explosives, based off of the M2 grenade), or HE rounds to very high velocities. The barrel alloy is based on the GA1b's, as is the Gavrillium gunpowder, to allow for high rates of fire without melting the gun. Due to the high range granted by Gavrillium, extra time has been spent perfecting the rifling and sights to produce unparalleled accuracy. Two wheels allow for the gun to be dragged by the tail by man or by horse or anything else we've got, while the wheeled Boxes o' Ammo allows plenty of rounds to be dragged with the gun without aid of machinery or animals. A four-man crew can move the gun plus its two boxes of ammunition rapidly, and be set up to fire the weapon in seconds. All the steel used in the design is Caelium steel, further improving its mobility.

I'm not reposting the motorized version, I think that this is probably better. It uses some Caelium to keep the whole assembly lightweight, some Gavrillium for the shells, and chemicals for the barrel, but nothing in large amounts. It should instantly be Cheap and capable of wrecking anything from infantry assaults to power armor to vehicles with up to Medium armor.

...darnit this has become another wall of text. Ah well. I'll post a basic "flying armored boat" capable of transporting troops, kind of like a flying Armored Sled, really.

[Yami]

Why wouldn't we want shields on the front line? 

Avalanche Armored Lifting Suit
ArV 13 Tortoise
PAS-13 'Perahudara' Patrol Airship
Heck even your own LFG-13 Light Field Gun

All of these designs include some sort of armour or gun shield or something to protect our soldiers.  Obviously people want shields on the front line.  As for equipping Engineers with the tools needed to quickly chop through a wall, it's not like we can't just hand them guns.  We have the technology.  The entrenching tool/axe is meant to be just that, a tool.  Something that can make doors out of walls.  I didn't feel the need to design anything for concealment because we have an entire fortress city to play with if we can just walk through walls.  I would notice you didn't offer any additional concealment options either.

~Yami mad genius Scientist

[Madman198237]

Yes but not an actual SHIELD. Gun shields are for the protection of the crew behind it, and move with the gun, they provide cover for something that can't make use of regular cover and is located behind the front lines anyway.

An actual shield is just something heavy that is steadily worn down as soldiers attempt to use it to block enemy fire, and also can't cover all the angles from which you'll get shot in your average modern war anyway. It just puts vulnerable suits onto the front lines and gets them killed trying to act like one-man walls. It'd be different if we discovered that our power armor suits can't resist all the enemy fire they need to, in which case we can pull a Mereth and give them tower shields carried in one hand to add the extra edge of protection from the most bullets coming at them (from the front), while not leaving them completely vulnerable to flankers and shots coming in from outside the cone of fire the shield will protect them from.

So, yes, it's a tool. It isn't really necessary since I HOPE we don't need to design "metal shovel" for our mountain suits, that'd be kind of silly. I would notice that no, I did not provide anything meant to be concealed except for the 40mm gun---oh wait, that's half of my suggestions for this turn. I am saying that we will not be saying "oh let's not do concealment because the enemy did ONE THING that conceals things sometimes". What you said was basically "let's not do concealment lets do cover instead" which is not really a great plan.

[Baffler]

I'll throw another flying boat on the pile. Pretty much just copied this straight from earlier in the thread, updated for new technology. Main difference from the Perahudara is the armament and what I hope is a safer and less expensive propulsion system.

Terbang Gunship
A flying craft, intended to carry infantry or to act as a mobile gun platform. It is roughly 40 feet long and 15 feet wide at the widest and resembles a small boat or barge, with a shallow curved and heavily armored 'keel' intended to protect against attackers on the ground. It has a flat wooden deck covered with a high canvas roof and is protected around the edges by a low wall topped with a railing. A small enclosed cabin just behind the prow houses the control station. Gangplanks set into the floor on either side allow quick loading and unloading, and a pair of steel rails on the underside of the craft allow it to rest on its keel on most flat surfaces. The craft is typically quite stable, but carabiners can be attached to the railing or posts supporting the roof during high turbulence or more adventurous maneuvers. It mounts five LGG's, two near the middle of the deck on either side, two at the rear corners, and one close to the prow. The center of the deck is open, to allow for storing cargo (secured by nets) or standing room for infantry. Lift and forward motion are provided by a large gravite engine, set into the center of the hull close to the deck and powered by a pair of large gav generators. Steering is achieved by feeding power to sections of a pair of thick caelium strips running the length of the hull at port and starboard, causing that portion of the hull to rise above the rest and cause the craft to turn due to caelium's natural tilting effect.

[Yami]

I actually think cover over concealment's a pretty solid plan when the enemy seems to've designed their weaponry with a wall of bullets approach.  Besides, if we don't have mobile cover, we're putting vulnerable soldiers on the front lines without them.  It's not like we're just going to sit and wait for Aberra to come for us.  I mean, unless that's what we choose to do and we go with Plan A.

~Yami mad genius Scientist

[Madman198237]

So: You can do concealment and cover both and get the advantages of both without sacrificing anything, and the enemy has NOTHING that suggests a "wall of bullets" approach. WE have the "wall of bullets" approach, our only MGs are Gatling/Minigun-type monsters of death that put Hitler's Buzzsaw to shame. We do have mobile cover, the Armored and Roofed Sleds, which you convenient forgot about after claiming they fill the role of armored infantry (which is the exact role that a shieldbearing Lifting Suit tries to do a very, very poor job of filling)

The enemy doesn't need to come to us, we take the Armored Sleds to them...or we make them come to us because taking territory is the name of the game and defensive designs are just as useful as offensive ones.

[Yami]

ARA Model-1911A "Modea" Self-Loading Rifle: The first Self-Loading Rifle to see combat, the "Modea" is 4.5 kg and a meter in length. It fires 7.92x57mm rounds fed into the weapon by a 12-round en bloc magazine. It has variable sights and is effective to 400 meters. She's packs a punch but suffers from unreliable internal components. The end of the barrel is lightly threaded to allow attachment of a cup launcher. Costs 2 Ore and 2 Wood (CHEAP)

ARA Model-1912MG "Scythe" Heavy Machine Gun: Utilizes the same 7.92x57mm rounds used by the "Modea". Fires 80-round belts that can be linked together for sustained fire. The barrel rarely overheats even at it's 650 rpm fire rate, but is somewhat inaccurate. Carried around in weight-negating cases. Costs 5 Ore and 3 Caelium. (CHEAP)

Literally the only guns we know about are semi auto rifle and a Cheap machine gun.  To me that kinda reads a wall of bullets approach.  Yes I know we have the same with the SMG and our own L2G's.  I am not hoping for an even fight.  I'm hoping to give us an edge.

See, I think the thing is, I do not believe our lifting suits'll do a poor job of being armoured infantry.  I think they'll do the job alot cheaper, and yeah, maybe not as well.  I'm banking on being cheaper and doing a good enough job to make up for it.

And yeah, we do have the sleds, but someone earlier'd talked about vehicles always getting bogged down and lost in city fighting, so I was hoping to find a more infantry mobile alternative, cuz, you know, they might've had a point.

Someone earlier'd mentioned being specialized being a boon.  That's what the shields are, Specialized in cover.

~Yami mad genius Scientist

[Man of Paper]

An accounting error has led to the discovery of the Scythe actually being Expensive.

[Yami]

Oh.  Ha!  Well now don't I look silly.  Eh, I still think my design's solid, even if not quite as necessary.  I mean, we might have more of an edge in the bullet hell side of things for now, but that doesn't change my core arguments.

~Yami mad genius Scientist

[Madman198237]

So, vehicles don't ALWAYS get bogged down in street fighting, but tanks without sufficient infantry support (same goes for every other armored vehicle) are orders of magnitude more vulnerable to infantry in confined spaces than they are in open fields (no duh). So yes, if we want to deploy armor in cities we'll need something better than the Sleds, which are particularly vulnerable to attack from the flanks and above (given the flat roof and very limited visibility). Shields are not the way to go about it, because it effectively blinds the user to one direction of attack, while leaving them vulnerable to every other direction, something you really need to avoid in the confused environment of a half-destroyed city (which Harren Island is rapidly going to become).

We're going to have to agree to disagree on the shields, I'm not getting into yet another argument with the team today.

Why yes, they have a semi-auto rifle. Those cannot be effectively used to make a "wall of bullets" and never have been. They are used for precision marksmanship at middle ranges just like today's carbines and assault rifles (no, modern militaries do not fire them on full-auto very often). Their MG is...an MG. It doesn't do "wall of bullets" no matter how much you think it does, it's going to be used...just like everybody else's MGs throughout history. Raking back and forth to keep enemy heads down. Also, it's Expensive, so it's less of a problem. It's liable to go Cheap soon, possibly before we reach combat with them, in fact.

Yes, specialization can be good. Extreme specialization ("can only stop bullets from the front and blinds the user and is only used by an unarmored guy who is also somehow supposed to use a shovel and some explosive stakes with his third and fourth arms") is crippling, not an advantage.

[Yami]

Well, yeah.  That's why we vote for things, so we can disagree all we want and still go forward.  For instance, for airships I plan on voting for Perahudara over the Terbang because reasons, but you know, don't need to go into detail unless I plan on trying to swing votes.

~Yami mad genius Scientist

[Twinwolf]

I think we have enough suggestions to begin a vote.

Designs
PAS-13 'Perahudara' Patrol Airship (0):
Terbang (1): Twinwolf
ArV-13 Tortoise (0):
LMG-13 (0):
LFG-13 Light Field Gun (1): Twinwolf

Send to Allies
Gavrillium Engine (1): Twinwolf
M2 Dispersion Grenade (0):
GA1 Cannon (0):
GA1b Cannon (0):
LGG-12 (0):
Mountain Suit (0):

[Madman198237]

Designs
PAS-13 'Perahudara' Patrol Airship (1): Madman
Terbang (1): Twinwolf
ArV-13 Tortoise (0):
LMG-13 (0):
LFG-13 Light Field Gun (2): Twinwolf, Madman

Send to Allies
Gavrillium Engine (2): Twinwolf, Madman
M2 Dispersion Grenade (0):
GA1 Cannon (0):
GA1b Cannon (0):
LGG-12 (0):
Mountain Suit (0):

If the airship vote becomes problematic I might switch or propose something else...though using as many MGs as it does, the Terbang is probably going to be equally expensive to the Perahudara, and having that cannon in the sky might be a really nice advantage to have.

[Yami]

Designs
PAS-13 'Perahudara' Patrol Airship (1): Madman
Terbang (1): Twinwolf
ArV-13 Tortoise (0):
LMG-13 (0):
LFG-13 Light Field Gun (2): Twinwolf, Madman
Devastator Infantry Cannon (1): Yami
Combat Engineering Kit (1): Yami

Send to Allies
Gavrillium Engine (3): Twinwolf, Madman, Yami
M2 Dispersion Grenade (0):
GA1 Cannon (0):
GA1b Cannon (0):
LGG-12 (0):
Mountain Suit (0):

Invasion Plan
Plan A (0):
Plan B (1): Yami
Plan C (0):

~Yami

[FallacyofUrist]

Designs
PAS-13 'Perahudara' Patrol Airship (2): Madman, FallacyofUrist
Terbang (1): Twinwolf
ArV-13 Tortoise (0):
LMG-13 (0):
LFG-13 Light Field Gun (2): Twinwolf, Madman
Devastator Infantry Cannon (1): Yami
Combat Engineering Kit (2): Yami, FallacyofUrist

Send to Allies
Gavrillium Engine (4): Twinwolf, Madman, Yami, FallacyofUrist
M2 Dispersion Grenade (0):
GA1 Cannon (0):
GA1b Cannon (0):
LGG-12 (0):
Mountain Suit (0):

Invasion Plan
Plan A (1): FallacyofUrist
Plan B (1): Yami
Plan C (0):

Improving our aircraft(currently we basically have a hot air balloon) and leveraging the Mountain Suit are on my list.