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Author Topic: Government Types  (Read 27830 times)

KittyTac

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2018, 10:25:50 pm »

Also, the plan is (I think) to NOT have the overseer as an omnipotent god. Toady has the final say  everywhere. If a suggestion goes against the plan, it won't be implemented. And yes, he reads all suggestion threads that aren't obvious trolls (like your battle royale thing).

Well I should have been more specific. Toady reading the thread who cares. I want him to comment on it.
Toady never comments on suggestion threads. Just silently takes notes. That's it.

Thats a little disappointing to be honest.
It would soak up valuable development time. DF development is quite efficient for such a complicated game.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2018, 11:29:12 pm »

Also, the plan is (I think) to NOT have the overseer as an omnipotent god. Toady has the final say  everywhere. If a suggestion goes against the plan, it won't be implemented. And yes, he reads all suggestion threads that aren't obvious trolls (like your battle royale thing).

Well I should have been more specific. Toady reading the thread who cares. I want him to comment on it.
Toady never comments on suggestion threads. Just silently takes notes. That's it.

Thats a little disappointing to be honest.
It would soak up valuable development time. DF development is quite efficient for such a complicated game.
Toady answers questions by email, responds to questions on Twitter, holds a monthly q&a, ensures all his seminars are uploaded for free somewhere and he reads every suggestions thread (first post at least anyhow). He also monitors and responds to queries in each release thread, comments and takes action on the bug tracker and occassionally posts in other threads.

He also moderates the forum in general, taking action against spam and forum political fights. Oh and he and Threetoe draw pictures for everyone who donates on request.

It's a wonder he still has time to make the game too.
Not sure what's "disappointing" about any of that.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2018, 06:22:51 am »

Thank you for explaining what you meant. I can see what you mean, and it is true that we cannot tell how the game ends up being but we can start discussions based on assumptions to inspire toady.

Now, when I said that by having a king you already have a class system, I meant to point out that a king ultimately has the last word in all matters therefore rendering the rest of the people second class citizens. They might be allowed to shape society however they want, but if king does not agree then he can stop them how he seems fit.
Therefore the existance of an all powerful king implies that the rest are powerless naturally.

The king has the last word because it is his job to have the last word.  That does not imply that he is a different class to you and you are second-class, any more than the master carpenter having the last word as to how the tables and chairs are to be assembled.  There is a group, the group has functions, you are part of that group and the king has the job of making certain decisions, while you have other decisions to make, possibly ones delegated to you by the king.

What's the deal of you constantly being worried about portrayal of class oppression in game?
I know you are probably into some PC stuff, but seriously - what the hell? Not portraying/portraying it in game does not put it into higher moral standard. Also, subjugating art to ideology is always something I consider a bad thing.

I have some remnant left of a conscience, therefore I am naturally concerned about oppression of folks and depictions thereof.  ;) :)

I actually was not arguing against the implementation of class oppression, merely saying that we cannot simply assume that the devs will go through the history book to find out what oppressions they ought to add in, so as to be true to 'history'.  That means there is little point is discussing certain political details like enfranchisement, since those things depend upon the class oppression's in society.

Art is inseparable from ideology, it does not need subjugating since it is automatically subjugated by it's very nature.  From my perspective it is fine to add in oppression provided that this is not the protagonists role but that of antagonists.  It is immoral to make a game where the player is cast in the role of the oppressor, that is because playing *as* the oppressor will cause you to think as the oppressor thinks and that will inevitably promote empathy with the oppressors perspective and lack of empathy with the victims perspective in real-life. 

The interesting question for is what happens if we play *as* a card-carrying villain, that is the game explicitly tells us that we are wrong/bad/evil.  Does the characterisation overcome the protagonist-empathy or does the player end up simply becoming like a card-carrying villain in real-life?

No thats not how rebublics work. Your confusing republics with democracy. Democracy is when everyone votes not just leaders no country at the moment exists that is a democracy. Republics is just when the people vote in leaders and the leaders vote on issues and what not, which is the system most countries currently use.

Children don't vote in a democracy nor do foreign visitors; so it not exactly everyone voting. 

And now I feel myself a little autistic because I were not able to tell right-away if this post was meant as a a clever irony or not.  :-\

To answer your question. My criticism was not meant to be argument-filled complex discussion about society and classes, because I find these discussions generally not guiding game development at all. DF developers take general ideas and try to put them inside the framework of the game while not trying to follow every single philosophical implication that it brings along.

My criticism was only meant as a metaphorical *smack* to GoblinCookie's head, because I don't find the guy dumb and I wouldn't even care if GC was dumb. But the problem is that he is very obsessive about certain ideas. And I actually find it kinda fascinating how this obsession leads him to react to things and ideas very specific way. Like in the topic of "Dwarven Social Lives" he brought out some existential ideas he found horrifying and I compared his existential fears to mine concluding that he is probably metaphysical opposite of me :D since, I am also obsessed with different philosophical ideas and ideals, but they are located in opposite spectrum.

I have realised that these obsessions are unhealthy when not controlled. And in case of myself, when I find out that I act on behalf of obsession, I metaphorically smack myself and ask - "Is this me or is this my obsession acting out right-now?" This simple Cognitive-behavioral technique has helped me to find out if my behaviour is unconstructive and save huge amount of my time and energy. Otherwise I fear I might be really annoying person in every social circle :D

I hope this explained my post and my emotionally motivated need to smack GC while telepathically yelling him that "Hey, you don't have to take these things obnoxiously seriously!"

Certain things in life are quite serious.  Taking those things obnoxiously seriously is not being an annoying person in every social circle, it is called being a decent person, to whom other people's miseries are not funny. 
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2018, 07:10:10 am »

aokay here are some thoughts I have gathered from this post.

1: There is decision makers, making decisions. They are single persons or a body of several people who make these decisions.
2: In the game I want to see a process of how these decisions come to be, and depending on the nature of the decision maker. A king makes decisions by himself, and thus it should be based on his personality. If the decision maker is made up or dependent on more than one person their personalities should also be important for the decision, but there should be interactions about these decisions.
3. Checks and balances should come up in many governments. Things such as, a religion giving a person kibgship in the first place and maybe even the power to cast the king as an outsider (think excommunication). There should be occassional despots with unchecked power.
4. The People should consider the decisions made and like and dislike them based on their situations and personalities.
5. The decision maker should have a way to make his decision known to the world (messengers) and should also enforce these laws(police and punishing)
6. The people should be able to like and dislike laws and decisions and based upon it occassionally revolt.
7. People should be allowed to request aid from decision makers which they could refuse or decide to follow. ( if the highest priest came in, he would have a higher chance of gaining support than a mere dabbling soap maker)
8. Represemtatives should be present, so that the decision maker didnt have to be present in every hamlet, instead hed send one of these as representative for their system (apready in the game in form of barons and dukes)
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PlatinumSun

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2018, 03:13:30 pm »

GoblinCookie of course children and foreign visitors dont vote in a republic or democracy. When I said everyone, I was expecting you to comprehend that within reason. But maybe I should have remembered why the Confederates lost the battle of Gettysburg.

Also I would say you are arguing adding opression into the game. Why souldnt the player be allowed to have Nazi dwarf? The reason you provided is absurd.

Your also saying since the devs might not add something in theres no point in us talking about it? You do realise this is called the suggestion boards.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 04:09:32 pm by PlatinumSun »
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PlatinumSun

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2018, 04:20:35 pm »

Anyway our arguing is not important. Ive already said what I think should be added to the game.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 07:22:23 pm by PlatinumSun »
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2018, 05:18:41 pm »

Quote
I have some remnant left of a conscience, therefore I am naturally concerned about oppression of folks and depictions thereof.

Implying that the rest of us arguing against you don't?
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2018, 06:49:07 pm »

I wonder if people will actually start discussing government types and functions for dwarf fortress?
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2018, 07:00:53 pm »

I wonder if people will actually start discussing government types and functions for dwarf fortress?
I've tried twice in this thread.
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PlatinumSun

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2018, 07:24:05 pm »

I wonder if people will actually start discussing government types and functions for dwarf fortress?
I've tried twice in this thread.

I already have. Read some of my comments before I started arguing with GoblinCookie. Ill elaborate with a nice long wall of text tomorrow.
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Re: Government Types
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2018, 08:40:08 pm »

I did read it  ;)
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KittyTac

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2018, 09:54:55 pm »

Recent studies have shown that violent video games don't make people violent (unless they're really mentally immature, but if you're playing DF you're probably mentally mature), so your argument is flawed, GoblinCookie.
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2018, 04:32:18 am »

The only difference between a Monarchy and a Dictatorship is as follows; the Line of Succession, the Title, and title of those legitimizing your power.
Other than that it is depending on your own acts if you are a benevolent or malevolent leader.
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KittyTac

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2018, 04:34:48 am »

The only difference between a Monarchy and a Dictatorship is as follows; the Line of Succession, the Title, and title of those legitimizing your power.
Other than that it is depending on your own acts if you are a benevolent or malevolent leader.
A dictator is pretty much a president for life with a bit more power.
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Miles_Umbrae

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Re: Government Types
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2018, 04:47:54 am »

The only difference between a Monarchy and a Dictatorship is as follows; the Line of Succession, the Title, and title of those legitimizing your power.
Other than that it is depending on your own acts if you are a benevolent or malevolent leader.
A dictator is pretty much a president for life with a bit more power.
In a Dictatorship you are either a military leader or the leader of a military coup, and those legitimizing your power are other military leaders.
In a Monarchy you are a noble that either inherited the thron from a parent or you and other nobles overthrew the previous monarch, and it is the nobles that legitimizes your power.
The citizens of either system has very little influence on the ruling of the nation other than reporting the progress of projects and the quality/quantity of taxable goods.
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