Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19

Author Topic: Government Types  (Read 6774 times)

Cathar

  • Bay Watcher
  • Adequate Engraver
    • View Profile
    • My shit
Re: Government Types
« Reply #240 on: September 14, 2018, 10:35:20 am »

From the accounts I read from the one hundred years wars, they really don't give a damn about who is in power. When the power in a city changes, this is the opportunity for a carnival, and the population likes that since it is customary for the new lord to distribute gifts to its new population.

They have absolutely no lasting loyalty. This is a foreign concept that do not even occur to them (from my readings)

Edit : That said, pre-roman or early middle age had a different approach, since the nobles were basically peasants with weapons, taken from the population itself (don't quote me on that).

Edit : Have a meme


Maybe we can discuss about differences like that in DF societies, rather than about 20th century ideologies which are a bit out of place in a medieval setting. Variables like "how does someone becomes noble", "what are the perks and responsabilities of nobles" and "how the population views them", stuff like that
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 11:16:37 am by Cathar »
Logged
I suppose you missed the whole thing of me thinking that fapping was the noise a keyboard made when being typed with.
Current project : Mong Kima
Commission me

Detoxicated

  • Bay Watcher
  • Urist McCarpenter
    • View Profile
Re: Government Types
« Reply #241 on: September 14, 2018, 11:32:49 am »

Indeed.
Maybe priests or other nobles could make somebody a noble. Entities would unlock these things through philosophical works.

 
Logged

Adequate Swimmer

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Types
« Reply #242 on: September 14, 2018, 01:48:47 pm »

Indeed.
Maybe gold or other more naturally sharp metals could make somebody a noble.
Logged
[VALUE:PEACE:0]

Detoxicated

  • Bay Watcher
  • Urist McCarpenter
    • View Profile
Re: Government Types
« Reply #243 on: September 14, 2018, 02:44:15 pm »

Indeed.
Maybe gold or other more naturally sharp metals could make somebody a noble.
True but there is no buying titles without a proper ceremony...
Logged

Cathar

  • Bay Watcher
  • Adequate Engraver
    • View Profile
    • My shit
Re: Government Types
« Reply #244 on: September 14, 2018, 03:49:30 pm »

I mean as far as I know, medieval/renaissance government types are of three kinds ; city state republics, where the city governance is independant, feudalism where the landowners are the vassals of bigger landowners and have their legator inherit their lands, and imperial where one man controls all and local governors are just his representatives and are designed and removed according to the monarch. We could add to this a tribal/pre roman system where the leaders are elected by the community, and I believe we have all possible government systems of that time.

The details could be procedurially generated (ex ; you need to be a magician to access nobility and non-magic nobles are automatically replaced as soon as a magic user is available, or your father need to has been a noble for you to be a noble etc)

Just some thoughts
Logged
I suppose you missed the whole thing of me thinking that fapping was the noise a keyboard made when being typed with.
Current project : Mong Kima
Commission me

Detoxicated

  • Bay Watcher
  • Urist McCarpenter
    • View Profile
Re: Government Types
« Reply #245 on: September 14, 2018, 06:40:11 pm »

You forgot theocracies like the papal state.
Logged

Cathar

  • Bay Watcher
  • Adequate Engraver
    • View Profile
    • My shit
Re: Government Types
« Reply #246 on: September 14, 2018, 07:05:13 pm »

This is essencially a centralized system with a twist, this is why I haven't mentionned it
Logged
I suppose you missed the whole thing of me thinking that fapping was the noise a keyboard made when being typed with.
Current project : Mong Kima
Commission me

Detoxicated

  • Bay Watcher
  • Urist McCarpenter
    • View Profile
Re: Government Types
« Reply #247 on: September 14, 2018, 07:08:57 pm »

Okay. Nonetheless your points are quite nice to read and I agree with them.
Logged

GoblinCookie

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Types
« Reply #248 on: September 15, 2018, 06:06:06 am »

I think you're being much too black-and-white here.  The majority of us hate our leaders and their ideals, but we don't rise up and overthrow the centuries old system we have in place (European countries, obviously - America hasn't been wiping its own arse for that long).  A nation of pacifists aren't pacifists to their very core, which is why you and GC are, in my opinion, arguing unfairly.  It's dishonest to argue about a perfect planet-of-hats people on your side, and then throw out valid observations from the significantly more complex real world.

That is what we are talking about, you can change the rules around so that people are more moderate, but that was not what we are talking about.  The complexity of the real-world in any case generally illusory, created by people taking into account actually irrelevant details and giving them a primacy they don't deserve and treating arbitrary distinctions as facts. 

The majority of people do not hate their leaders and their ideals, if they do then it is only a slim majority that does so.  If the overwhelming majority of the people hate their leaders and their ideals, then the rulers will fall.  Or else how do rebellions and revolutions actually happen?

Technically caste is simply a  system for creating subvariants of creatures which Toady only really uses for biological gender but which is a powerful tool for modders creating less standard species and creatures. Not that thatís particularly relevant here, but itís a distinction.

I do feel that GC is right here and that the proposed state in which a tiny minority relying on the obedience of a huge population that is diametrically opposed to everything they do without any support or similarity in goals is fundamentally doomed. That caste of supermen might be able to take over the system from the top and rule it for a short while, but no government can stand when literally every aspect of the system including their own enforcers hate them and their ideals

Caste is a flawed stand-in used by modders to create subvarients of creatures, because they are forced to do it that way.  It is deeply flawed because you cannot make them hereditary, because the system was built for the sake of having male and female, it was not built to support different social orders.

From the accounts I read from the one hundred years wars, they really don't give a damn about who is in power. When the power in a city changes, this is the opportunity for a carnival, and the population likes that since it is customary for the new lord to distribute gifts to its new population.

They have absolutely no lasting loyalty. This is a foreign concept that do not even occur to them (from my readings)

Edit : That said, pre-roman or early middle age had a different approach, since the nobles were basically peasants with weapons, taken from the population itself (don't quote me on that).

If people had no lasting loyalty, then how was it possible for kingdoms and political arrangements to persist for hundreds of years, basically you are talking nonsense to a frightening degree.  The lords ruled because people had loyalty to them, or at least to their office and were prepared to die for them as a result.  'Natural selection' would quickly eliminate any regime that did not rest upon any kind of 'lasting loyalty', any rival regime that inspired such loyalty would sweep it away with ease. 

In effect, the situation works no differently from a modern dictatorship.  People celebrated when the Americans overthrow Saddam Hussain, but as we know in hindsight this in no way implied that people in general were supportive of the American puppet government.  The 100 years war is similar, it is a war of religion and both sides contain a lot of hidden adherents to the other side's religion.  These people will celebrate when the other side wins, not because they have no 'lasting loyalty' but because they have such loyalty to their religion and support the overthrow of the dictatorship of their own side's religion over them.

Maybe we can discuss about differences like that in DF societies, rather than about 20th century ideologies which are a bit out of place in a medieval setting. Variables like "how does someone becomes noble", "what are the perks and responsabilities of nobles" and "how the population views them", stuff like that

It is the same reality, the same human nature and in many cases broadly similar ideas and institutions. Historical eras are categories made up by historians, they don't really exist as hard facts and so hard statements as you are making cannot legitimately be made.  In any case, the DF world is currently almost as alien to medieval society as it is to modern society, but we are more familiar with modern society's terms so we use those terms to understand DF society rather than medieval one's. 

I mean as far as I know, medieval/renaissance government types are of three kinds ; city state republics, where the city governance is independant, feudalism where the landowners are the vassals of bigger landowners and have their legator inherit their lands, and imperial where one man controls all and local governors are just his representatives and are designed and removed according to the monarch. We could add to this a tribal/pre roman system where the leaders are elected by the community, and I believe we have all possible government systems of that time.

The details could be procedurially generated (ex ; you need to be a magician to access nobility and non-magic nobles are automatically replaced as soon as a magic user is available, or your father need to has been a noble for you to be a noble etc)

Just some thoughts

None of those concepts are relevant because DF society is not a medieval one. 
Logged
Forgotten Realms Direforged 2.6N
*Released 12th November 2018
GoblinCookie's Expanded Dictionary 0.1
*Released 8th September 2018
My book

Cathar

  • Bay Watcher
  • Adequate Engraver
    • View Profile
    • My shit
Re: Government Types
« Reply #249 on: September 15, 2018, 07:19:50 am »

If people had no lasting loyalty, then how was it possible for kingdoms and political arrangements to persist for hundreds of years, basically you are talking nonsense to a frightening degree.

You are making the assumption that because people accept the system in which they live, they do care about the personae that are at its head. Truth is they don't, and they don't have to because feudalism do not rely on what farmers think.

This is hindsight at its worse.

You can read Machiavelli's Prince to have a better understanding on the "social contract" that exists between lords and common class. It is a short read and will give you a surface knowledge on how those things work and why loyalty is holy unneeded in a medieval setting.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 07:24:58 am by Cathar »
Logged
I suppose you missed the whole thing of me thinking that fapping was the noise a keyboard made when being typed with.
Current project : Mong Kima
Commission me

Dorsidwarf

  • Bay Watcher
  • [INTERSTELLAR]
    • View Profile
Re: Government Types
« Reply #250 on: September 15, 2018, 08:09:49 am »

The Hundred Years War was not a "war of religion" as far as I have ever seen, it was a war based on the King of England's claim to the Kingdom of France, triggered by the King of France revoking all of Edward III's french titles after a falling-out. The Protestant Reformation would not take place for another hundred years, and the Church Of England another fifty years after that.

It was instrumental to the rise of english/french nationalism due to the immense hatred it gendered between the two kingdoms, however, along with the decline of traditional medieval feudalism in those emerging nations.
Logged
Quote from: LW
One of these days we will succeed in deporting all Scandinavians back to Somalia
Quote from: Rodney Ootkins
Everything is going to be alright

Cathar

  • Bay Watcher
  • Adequate Engraver
    • View Profile
    • My shit
Re: Government Types
« Reply #251 on: September 15, 2018, 08:19:36 am »

The Hundred Years War was not a "war of religion" as far as I have ever seen, it was a war based on the King of England's claim to the Kingdom of France, triggered by the King of France revoking all of Edward III's french titles after a falling-out. The Protestant Reformation would not take place for another hundred years, and the Church Of England another fifty years after that.

It was instrumental to the rise of english/french nationalism due to the immense hatred it gendered between the two kingdoms, however, along with the decline of traditional medieval feudalism in those emerging nations.

This is also hindsight. It was indeed not a war of religion (do people really think that? xD), it is a war of succession. French king dies without heir, next in line is already king of England. Local french noble are divided and some think too much power in the hands on one man will act contrary to their interests and chose another man to carry the title of King of France. English king decides he will take none of it and sends mercenaries to force them into submission.

This has nothing to do with nationalism. "France" as it was understood by then, was not a nation. We didn't even had a unified language. When Joan of Arc says she will "bout the english out of France", she means "Ile de France", the region around Paris in which they had a foothold.

This later was "revisionned" by french writters during the 19th and early 20th century to give credibility to their nationalistic and patriotic movement. This is a well after-the-case rewritting of history. Joan of Arc was never a nationalistic icon during her time, she was a retainer of Charles V.

Also a thing of note : Joan of Arc herself was understood to be a diviner or a witch by the partesans of the french king. It was not a rare occurence for women like her to accompany armies (during her life she shared that position with no less than three other witches, two women and a man).

(Even the name "Joan of Arc" is a modern fabrication. She was called "Jeanne", commoners had no family names. They however had nicknames to distinguish from one another, and her father was called Jacques "Dard" in his village. His nickname would be transferred to her during her trial. And because writing was not exactly an exact science at the time, Jeanne Dard became Jeanne d'Arc.

She was however awarded a family name when she was annoblished, and given the name "Du Lys".)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 08:56:03 am by Cathar »
Logged
I suppose you missed the whole thing of me thinking that fapping was the noise a keyboard made when being typed with.
Current project : Mong Kima
Commission me

GoblinCookie

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Types
« Reply #252 on: September 15, 2018, 10:17:41 am »

The Hundred Years War was not a "war of religion" as far as I have ever seen, it was a war based on the King of England's claim to the Kingdom of France, triggered by the King of France revoking all of Edward III's french titles after a falling-out. The Protestant Reformation would not take place for another hundred years, and the Church Of England another fifty years after that.

It was instrumental to the rise of english/french nationalism due to the immense hatred it gendered between the two kingdoms, however, along with the decline of traditional medieval feudalism in those emerging nations.

 ::) ::) Yes, I thought he was talking about the 30 years war for some reason. 
Logged
Forgotten Realms Direforged 2.6N
*Released 12th November 2018
GoblinCookie's Expanded Dictionary 0.1
*Released 8th September 2018
My book

Cathar

  • Bay Watcher
  • Adequate Engraver
    • View Profile
    • My shit
Re: Government Types
« Reply #253 on: September 15, 2018, 10:43:57 am »

Now I want people to believe I'm genuinly surprized by this revelation
Logged
I suppose you missed the whole thing of me thinking that fapping was the noise a keyboard made when being typed with.
Current project : Mong Kima
Commission me

GoblinCookie

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Government Types
« Reply #254 on: September 15, 2018, 10:45:51 am »

You are making the assumption that because people accept the system in which they live, they do care about the personae that are at its head. Truth is they don't, and they don't have to because feudalism do not rely on what farmers think.

This is hindsight at its worse.

You can read Machiavelli's Prince to have a better understanding on the "social contract" that exists between lords and common class. It is a short read and will give you a surface knowledge on how those things work and why loyalty is holy unneeded in a medieval setting.

If things work as you say then there will simply be a bunch of warlords laying claim to arbitrary territories and will be replaced by another warlord as soon as they appear weak.  The only way for stability in territorial boundaries to continue in spite of differences of fortunes between different states is if there is a consistent identity people care about, or else everyone will just defect to whatever side is temporarily stronger. 

This is also hindsight. It was indeed not a war of religion (do people really think that? xD), it is a war of succession. French king dies without heir, next in line is already king of England. Local french noble are divided and some think too much power in the hands on one man will act contrary to their interests and chose another man to carry the title of King of France. English king decides he will take none of it and sends mercenaries to force them into submission.

This has nothing to do with nationalism "France" as it was understood by then, was not a nation. We didn't even had a unified language. When Joan of Arc says she will "bout the english out of France", she means "Ile de France", the region around Paris in which they had a foothold.

Yes it has everything to do with nationalism.  There is no *France* in anyone's head, there is no reason to fight about who is the King of France is there?  Some French people are fighting for the King of England because he is *also* in their view the King of France, some folks reject the claim of the English King, perhaps because they are uneasy about being taken over by England or perhaps not.

Who is stronger in this scenario?  The King of England is strongest, since he has half of France and the whole of England.  Why does the French side bother to fight on when they are outmatched?  That is because they care about who is king of a place called France and the reason they care about who is because they are French. 

The reason the war went on for 100 years is because of nationalism.  If I could magically wipe nationalism from their heads, the war would be over within a few months as soon as the 'French' side figures out the English side is strongest at the moment. 

This later was "revisionned" by french writters during the 19th and early 20th century to give credibility to their nationalistic and patriotic movement. This is a well after-the-case rewritting of history. Joan of Arc was never a nationalistic icon during her time, she was a retainer of Charles V.

Also a thing of note : Joan of Arc herself was understood to be a diviner or a witch by the partesans of the french king. It was not a rare occurence for women like her to accompany armies (during her life she shared that position with no less than three other witches, two women and a man).

(Even the name "Joan of Arc" is a modern fabrication. She was called "Jeanne", commoners had no family names. They however had nicknames to distinguish from one another, and her father was called Jacques "Dard" in his village. His nickname would be transferred to her during her trial. And because writing was not exactly an exact science at the time, Jeanne Dard became Jeanne d'Arc.

She was however awarded a family name when she was annoblished, and given the name "Du Lys".)

Oh please.  Nobody rewrote any history, the only people trying to rewrite history are the people claiming that Joan of Arc is not a nationalistic figure, when that is how she is remembered.  That comes from the fact that history is crucial to nationalism and somebody (the folks that created the EU) are making a definite attempt to destroy the nationalisms of Europe (and hence the nations also, because the two are inseperable). 

Joan of Arc was considered a witch by the English side and killed as one.  Joan is an anglisation of her name, which is Jeanne.  The was not a retainer, she only become one because she had a religious vision that essentially merged nationalism and religion together.  She is also a peasant, therefore she is not supposed to care about nationalism, in your corrupted historical understanding. 
Logged
Forgotten Realms Direforged 2.6N
*Released 12th November 2018
GoblinCookie's Expanded Dictionary 0.1
*Released 8th September 2018
My book
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19