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[Shadowlord]

Steel axes normally cost 300 points each. Instead of spending that much on them, you can make yourself iron or copper axes by bringing the resources needed instead, and having one dwarf make them for you. For comparison, you could bring 1 anvil and 2 steel axes for 1600 points. You could bring no anvil and 5 steel axes for 1500 points. Or, you could bring enough resources to make 18 iron axes for 1489 points, or 55 copper axes for 1498 points. 1200 points is slightly more than enough to make 7 iron axes or 21 copper axes.

You'll need:
1 anvil (1000 points),
2 tower-cap logs (3 points each, total 6 points),
* N magnetite/limonite/hematite stones (for iron, 24 points each), or N malachite stones (for copper, 6 points each), where N is the number of axes/picks/weapons you want
N-1 bituminous coal (3 points each)

Here's how:
You'll want to build a wood burner, a smelter, and a metalsmith's forge. Burn both logs in the wood burner to get two charcoal. Smelt the coke in the smelter. Each will produce a net gain of 2 fuel (that is, coke/charcoal) (producing 3 and consuming 1 in the process). Then smelt the magnetite/hematite/limonite or malachite, which will use one fuel per piece of ore. Finally you can make iron or copper axes in the metalsmith's forge, using one iron/copper bar and one fuel each.

The reason I said to bring two logs is that if you bring only one, you'll have an extra coke left over in the end (since it takes 2 to smelt ore and make an axe from it).

If you bring two logs:
1 coal -> 3 coke and 1 charcoal -> 2 axes
2 coal -> 5 coke and 1 charcoal -> 3 axes
3 coal -> 7 coke and 1 charcoal -> 4 axes
That's why you need N-1 coal.

If that wasn't clear enough, here's what you need for 17 iron axes:
1 anvil - 1000 points
2 tower-cap logs - 6 points
17 magnetite - 408 points
16 bituminous coal - 48 points
Total: 1462 points.

If you're insane and you want to spend almost all of your 2060 points on iron axes:
1 anvil - 1000 points
2 tower-cap logs - 6 points
39 magnetite - 936 points
38 bituminous coal - 114 points
Total: 2056 points.

If you REALLY want to min-max, you could omit the anvil, build a ton of stone crafts, and buy an anvil from traders so you can spend another 1000 points on more magnetite and coal:

2 tower-cap logs - 6 points
76 magnetite - 1824 points
75 bituminous coal - 225 points
Total: 2055 points.

You don't even have to use iron. Malachite (copper ore) costs 6 points each, and there's nothing stopping you from making your axes out of copper - or, hell, making your own copper picks (for roughly 9 points each) instead of buying them (for 20 points each).

You could make a whopping 117 axes or picks with slightly less than 2060 points if you bring an anvil, or 228 if you trade for an anvil.

[ November 25, 2007: Message edited by: Shadowlord ]

[ParrotPatrol]

I think I'll just bring an axe.

[PTTG??]

I like this! Also possible; don't bring a pick either. Just make sure to bring some raw stone first, or else you won't be able to build the furnaces- UNLESS!
you build the furnaces out of some spare malachite, make one pick, then mine out rock, deconstruct the furnaces, and use the malachite from them! AH HA! now, no one need bring tools evermore!

[Sean Mirrsen]

We need stone picks.

...

Speaking of which, why the hell not? Just add [CAN_STONE] to the things!...  Or not? Obsidian picks aren't the greatest for mining granite, as far as realism is concerned, and they won't wear out currently, but it WILL allow you to start a "caveman expedition" with nothing but raw materials and food...

[Thallone]

quote:Originally posted by Shadowlord:
<STRONG>If you REALLY want to min-max, you could omit the anvil, build a ton of stone crafts, and buy an anvil from traders so you can spend another 1000 points on more magnetite and coal:

2 tower-cap logs - 6 points
76 magnetite - 1824 points
75 bituminous coal - 225 points
Total: 2055 points.

You could make a whopping 117 axes or picks with slightly less than 2060 points if you bring an anvil, or 228 if you trade for an anvil.

[ November 25, 2007: Message edited by: Shadowlord ]</STRONG>

Probably not, since you'll have nothing to trade, as you have no anvil to make axes and picks, and no picks means no rocks to make trade goods (or anything else of value), so your only way out is to hope to have cave spiders.

[Shadowlord]

If you brought one copper pick, you could make some stone crafts, though probably not enough in time for the first caravan.

[Shooer]

You're kidding right?  Not having enough stone crafts to trade?  I guess I must be lucky then, being able to buy out entire trade caravans with 10 orders of stone mugs.  Well, not every thing, but every thing I want.

[Xombie]

it`s not fair dwarves can smith without hammer and still need axes to chop wood...

[Gelmax]

Considering that two steel axes beats fifty-five copper axes in a starting loadout for anything you use them for, unless you plan on trading fifty-three axes to the traders (which would make the whole ordeal uniquely pointless), I don't see your point. Let's not forget the time it takes to start up a smithing operation from scratch with a fresh group of dwarves - or, more importantly, the problems associated with having no wood production for that amount of time.

Besides, you forgot that you could save those six points spent on logs and just deconstruct the wagon at the beginning for three free logs.

[Jreengus]

quote:Originally posted by Xombie:
<STRONG>it`s not fair dwarves can smith without hammer and still need axes to chop wood...</STRONG>

Dwarven fists = more heat resisant than any hammer what do you think we are elves???

[steelabjur]

quote:Probably not, since you'll have nothing to trade, as you have no anvil to make axes and picks, and no picks means no rocks to make trade goods (or anything else of value), so your only way out is to hope to have cave spiders.

You could always bring a Bone Crafter and a Fisherdwarf with you if the area you chose had lots of water and make a ton of shell/bone crafts out of turtle (you could even jump start this with the food you bring with you). Or some dwarves with with Herbalism and farming if you have lots of plants in the area (Strawberries are a pretty good crop I've found). You could use those two logs you brought with you to build the necessary buildings you'd need (a Fishery and a Craftsdwarf's workshop) and recycle them when you got an anvil. It'd be rough going for the first year at least though, and require a ton of micromanagement in order to keep your dwarves content (what with no beds, or even a way to get out of the rain, no way to make more barrels than you started out with). Could make for a good story though.
I'd personally just start with one axe if I was going to go without both a pick and an anvil. Build a wooden shanty to hold a barracks for the dwarves with a Carpenter's workshop, a Fishery, and a Craftsdwarf's workshop flanking it outside (although, if I had access to sand, I might also make the workshops needed to make glass items for trade). Force my poor little dirt dwellers to rough it, living off the land like Elves, growing topside crops and making everything they need out of wood, bone, or shell until the first traders showed up and hope they brought at least one pick to sell to me with them. Come to think of it, that might make for a good story too.

[Shadowlord]

quote:Originally posted by Gelmax:
<STRONG>Considering that two steel axes beats fifty-five copper axes in a starting loadout for anything you use them for, unless you plan on trading fifty-three axes to the traders (which would make the whole ordeal uniquely pointless), I don't see your point. Let's not forget the time it takes to start up a smithing operation from scratch with a fresh group of dwarves - or, more importantly, the problems associated with having no wood production for that amount of time.
</STRONG>

I brought no axes to my wood fort, and had my first axe long before summer 1051 (But I smelted a couple coal, then a magnetite, then made an axe, instead of smelting all the coal first, then all the ore, etc). (And my first priority was setting up farms, food stockpiles, and a still, kitchen, and fishery)

I'm not quite clear on what you mean by "Considering that two steel axes beats fifty-five copper axes in a starting loadout for anything you use them for" - I figured that there would be no difference in chopping speed with different kinds of axes, since there doesn't seem to be any difference in mining speed between copper and iron picks. Even if they were, you can still make vastly more iron axes for the points you would have spent on bringing steel ones. I haven't noticed a difference between chopping with steel and iron axes, but the wood-choppers spend most of their time running from tree to tree rather than chopping.

And even if, say, copper axes chopped at 10% of the speed of steel ones, which I highly doubt, 30 wood choppers with copper axes would still be chopping more wood than two wood choppers with steel axes.

I had pretty much 0 crafts when the caravan arrived, though, since my dwarves were spending all their time either gathering plants, moving items to stockpiles, fishing, chopping wood, or building walls, ceilings, beds, etc. (They did a little farming, but not a lot since the number of seeds I brought was only 9-12ish per crop)

[ November 26, 2007: Message edited by: Shadowlord ]

[Skanky]

Axes double as weapons for your fledgling fortress, so steel axes will do the job of defending your home much better than copper or iron axes will. That and the fact that I generally have more points to spend than I need means I am unlikely to use this idea, but I really *do* like it.

Out of curiosity, how much does it cost to build steel axes rather than bringing them along pre-made?

[ November 26, 2007: Message edited by: Skanky ]

[ParrotPatrol]

This is all assuming you are actually playing a map with trees or magma.

[SquashMonster]

In my last fortress, I just brought some metal bars instead of axes.  Unload your stuff, take apart your wagon, burn your wagon into charcoal, and forge yourself an axe.  Then you can get plenty of wood.  All you lose is a tiny bit of fortress defense, but for the 275 points you save you can bring a lot of dogs.

Unless your map has no wood, in which case skip the axe all together.