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Author Topic: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values  (Read 25007 times)

KittyTac

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2018, 09:18:18 am »

We are talking about Toady One programming in bad stuff.  Therefore in the context you statement along the lines of "doesn't know doesn't hurt him" does not make sense.
He won't directly program in bad stuff. He would program in stuff that could be used for both good and bad. Did you not understand my argument?

The problem is that all settings still have to be programmed in, which takes up time.  It might well be that Toady One can add in all sorts of stuff for all sorts of people, the problem is that even if it is not switched on by every players, it still took time to program; which makes giving everything to everyone high inefficient. 

If we have both types of worlds, then they both compete for resources with each-other.  In general terms, an ideal world is simpler to program than an oppressive world, because the latter is highly complicated while the former is fairly simple.  Cutting out the oppressive world is thus pretty much a good way to get more stuff done.
Is it really a waste if a lot of players would use it? The same thing could be said about magic. There will be at least 5 settings for weirdness and 5 settings for violence. Not all people would use the nonviolent settings and not all would use the violent settings. Is that really such a waste?
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2018, 06:29:44 am »

He won't directly program in bad stuff. He would program in stuff that could be used for both good and bad. Did you not understand my argument?

The argument is non sequitur.  We are talking about stuff that really is just bad and the badness has nothing to do with the player but is part of the world at large.  To be in any way realistic, a bigoted world is not only bigoted independently of the player but that world will make things harder for the player if the player does not play along with their ideals. 

Is it really a waste if a lot of players would use it? The same thing could be said about magic. There will be at least 5 settings for weirdness and 5 settings for violence. Not all people would use the nonviolent settings and not all would use the violent settings. Is that really such a waste?

Yes the same thing could be said about magic, it is a similar level of complexity indeed.  Violence and weirdness are already in the game at the moment. 

Magic is something that is the key part and parcel of the genre, the absence of magic is something that distances DF from it's genre; in this case the complexity is warranted, the price is obviously worth playing.  With bigotry however, is the price really worth paying, does the lack of it really matter enough for the devs to expend the workload to add in as an optional setting for the players that want it.

What drives the demand for in-game bigotry when there are so many other things that need doing?  Is it all all Agent Smith of the Matrix, "the perfect human world was a disaster, human beings would not accept the program," as in people inherantly require a degree of dystopia because otherwise they refuse to properly immerse themselves with the setting?

Or is it worse than that? What if people feel judged by a world better than the one in which they live, inhabited by people better than they are?  They want an evil world because they are evil themselves, to look upon a better world functioning make them feel uneasy for the same reason that good people make evil people feel uneasy; guilt and envy. 
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2018, 06:32:05 am »

You two need to stop.

How about this. The first of you to STOP POSTING ABOUT IT is officially declared the winner of the argument, forever.
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KittyTac

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2018, 06:53:37 am »

You two need to stop.

How about this. The first of you to STOP POSTING ABOUT IT is officially declared the winner of the argument, forever.
Unfortunately, GC is one of those people who only lose if their post is not the last one when the thread is inevitably locked.

Now, to you, GC. If you are willing to back out of the argument, I will back out too. If you don't, it's the slugfest again. Your choice.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2018, 06:54:16 am »

Unfortunately, GC is one of those people who only lose if their post is not the last one when the thread is inevitably locked.
Unfortunately, it looks like he's not the only one.
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KittyTac

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2018, 06:55:28 am »

Unfortunately, GC is one of those people who only lose if their post is not the last one when the thread is inevitably locked.
Unfortunately, it looks like he's not the only one.
I don't have that syndrome. I am willing to argue on fair terms, and I can accept defeat if I am faced with a convincing argument.

(GC just called me evil for wanting to create an oppressive world. How's that for arguing in good faith?)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 07:17:13 am by KittyTac »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2018, 06:27:56 am »

I don't have that syndrome. I am willing to argue on fair terms, and I can accept defeat if I am faced with a convincing argument.

(GC just called me evil for wanting to create an oppressive world. How's that for arguing in good faith?)

I didn't call you evil, I was just asking what the motivation behind people's desire to be able to create bigoted worlds is, given that any resources spent adding such worlds into game needs to come out of other things?  There is a price to pay as it were, but where does the value of the thing you are 'paying for' come from?
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KittyTac

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2018, 06:33:07 am »

I don't have that syndrome. I am willing to argue on fair terms, and I can accept defeat if I am faced with a convincing argument.

(GC just called me evil for wanting to create an oppressive world. How's that for arguing in good faith?)

I didn't call you evil, I was just asking what the motivation behind people's desire to be able to create bigoted worlds is, given that any resources spent adding such worlds into game needs to come out of other things?  There is a price to pay as it were, but where does the value of the thing you are 'paying for' come from?
Enjoyment. I would like to play in a dystopia, either as the oppressed or one of the oppressors. It's not like the "people" are alive. I'd like to see this somewhere around Economy since that is an additional framework for such things. We have plenty of spare development time either just before or just after the Economy arc. You seem to be not aware that the "Villains -> Magic -> Laws & Customs -> Starting Scenarios -> Boats & Moving Fortress Parts -> Economy" progression is not the entirety of the path to DF v1.0. And even after the full release, the game will keep being developed (like Minecraft).
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 06:36:25 am by KittyTac »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2018, 06:38:31 am »

Enjoyment. I would like to play in a dystopia, either as the oppressed or one of the oppressors. It's not like the "people" are alive. I'd like to see this somewhere around Economy since that is an additional framework for such things. We have plenty of spare development time either just before or just after the Economy arc. You seem to be not aware that the "Villains -> Magic -> Laws & Customs -> Starting Scenarios -> Boats & Moving Fortress Parts -> Economy" progression is not the entirety of the path to DF v1.0. And even after the full release, the game will keep being developed (like Minecraft).

I was basically asking why is it enjoyable?  Also why does having spare development time mean it should be spent on bigotry rather than improving a whole range of existing mechanics.
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KittyTac

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2018, 06:48:24 am »

Enjoyment. I would like to play in a dystopia, either as the oppressed or one of the oppressors. It's not like the "people" are alive. I'd like to see this somewhere around Economy since that is an additional framework for such things. We have plenty of spare development time either just before or just after the Economy arc. You seem to be not aware that the "Villains -> Magic -> Laws & Customs -> Starting Scenarios -> Boats & Moving Fortress Parts -> Economy" progression is not the entirety of the path to DF v1.0. And even after the full release, the game will keep being developed (like Minecraft).

I was basically asking why is it enjoyable?  Also why does having spare development time mean it should be spent on bigotry rather than improving a whole range of existing mechanics.
Good worlds are boring for me (and many other people).

Re: Development time
Why can't it be spent on bigotry? It's after all just another mechanic. We have literally decades of it.
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Putnam

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2018, 07:27:40 pm »

Unfortunately, GC is one of those people who only lose if their post is not the last one when the thread is inevitably locked.
Unfortunately, it looks like he's not the only one.
I don't have that syndrome.

not sure i'm convinced of that

KittyTac

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #71 on: September 25, 2018, 09:04:53 pm »

Unfortunately, GC is one of those people who only lose if their post is not the last one when the thread is inevitably locked.
Unfortunately, it looks like he's not the only one.
I don't have that syndrome.

not sure i'm convinced of that
Can we not do that? Blatant and completely irrelevant ad hominems are against the rules.

Oh, and I was arguing in mostly good faith. It's just that GC's arguments are not convincing for me.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 01:31:52 am by KittyTac »
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2018, 03:19:39 am »

What drives the demand for in-game bigotry when there are so many other things that need doing?  Is it all Agent Smith of the Matrix, "the perfect human world was a disaster, human beings would not accept the program," as in people inherantly require a degree of dystopia because otherwise they refuse to properly immerse themselves with the setting?
As I see it, the desire for in-game bigotry stems from two very important things: Human nature (at least, as exemplified throughout history), and Fun.

Human Nature: Good vs. Evil, good vs. bad, and right vs. wrong are fun to debate, but they are all artificial constructs of an already-sentient mind. At its very most basic, pre-cognizant level, behavior is determined by two root impulses: Cooperation vs. Competition. Almost literally all multicellular organisms engage in both of these practices, to at least some extent, whether they know it or not, and whether we view a creature as being "good" or "bad" is largely a function of its innate tendency to either cooperate, or compete, with others--and most especially with us. Humans tout their own understanding of such enlightened concepts as Good and Evil, but let's not pretend that Cooperation and Competition aren't lurking just beneath the surface. They drive business, they drive the stock market, they drive politics, they drive culture, they drive war. The point is this: Every person, just as every other creature, has their own desired "level" of Cooperation vs. Competition, what they consider to be a happy medium of Us vs. Them. People who feel that the local sphere has been too competitive lately will try to make it swing back to Cooperation, and vice versa. People who feel beset by conflict will seek to create (or find) peace--and people who cannot benefit from that peace will try to sow strife. That's essentially where Agent Smith comes in, virtually all of humanity cannot be comfortable living in 100% Cooperation Teletubby Land. They will always seek to find or create an Other, someone fittingly challenging against whom to strive. As for whether this Other is a foreign power or a domestic element--history has shown that to be of little consequence, other than developing different names for the types of struggle.

Fun: Not that many people want to play Dwarf Fortress where they embark in 100% Cooperation Teletubby Land. Sure, that's fine when you're just starting out & learning the ropes, but after you've weathered your first few migrant waves and figured out how to make soap, you want to see if your fort can FIGHT something. And that's just Fortress Mode: Adventurers don't just want to randomly adventure, they want to tell a Cool Story. How best to tell a Cool Story, other than defeating a Big Bad? And how can you have a Big Bad in a world that lacks Evil--real, moral, and ideally premeditated Evil? Sure, that's not an argument that there must be bigotry . . . but you can't deny that bigotry would certainly be interesting. And let's not pretend that a game that calculates the exact trajectory of a baby's severed head is set in the nicest of all possible worlds.
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Strik3r

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2018, 03:50:43 am »

We are talking about stuff that really is just bad and the badness has nothing to do with the player but is part of the world at large.  To be in any way realistic, a bigoted world is not only bigoted independently of the player... 
Yeah, that'd just make the world feel more alive, wouldn't it? Seeing what prejudices and discrimination, whether real or perceived have arisen during worldgen(or due to your actions). then trying to figure out what's the cause of said discrimination. Then if you so desire, you can go ahead and try to change people's minds or even fuel that prejudice, if you want to. It is a veritable treasure trove of untapped potential for exciting stories.

...but that world will make things harder for the player if the player does not play along with their ideals.
I would see that as a good thing... Choices and consequences for your (in)actions. It's something that the game desperately needs IMO.

Magic is something that is the key part and parcel of the genre.
So are discrimination, oppression and prejudice, for any good story at least

I don't have that syndrome. I am willing to argue on fair terms, and I can accept defeat if I am faced with a convincing argument.

(GC just called me evil for wanting to create an oppressive world. How's that for arguing in good faith?)

I didn't call you evil, I was just asking what the motivation behind people's desire to be able to create bigoted worlds is, given that any resources spent adding such worlds into game needs to come out of other things?  There is a price to pay as it were, but where does the value of the thing you are 'paying for' come from?
*ahem*
Or is it worse than that? What if people feel judged by a world better than the one in which they live, inhabited by people better than they are?  They want an evil world because they are evil themselves, to look upon a better world functioning make them feel uneasy for the same reason that good people make evil people feel uneasy; guilt and envy. 
i dunno, seems like pretty thinly veiled attempt at name calling to me. Mixed in with a little strawmanning to boot.

I was just asking what the motivation behind people's desire to be able to create bigoted worlds is...
The desire for a good story? Unconventional gameplay and mechanics?
I was basically asking why is it enjoyable?  Also why does having spare development time mean it should be spent on bigotry rather than improving a whole range of existing mechanics.
Because it makes the world feel more alive, more realistic? "Also" "bigotry"(BTW, i hate this fucking word) isn't the only topic of this thread but a whole host of related and tangential concepts.

Good worlds are boring for me (and many other people).

Re: Development time
Why can't it be spent on bigotry? It's after all just another mechanic. We have literally decades of it.

Not really boring to me but whimsical worlds need to be rare enough that they have the kind of impact on the player that they should.
Same really being true for absolute crapsack worlds as well.
And uninhabited or formerly inhabited worlds.
An average world should have a bit of everything without any of it being exaggerated.

Unfortunately, GC is one of those people who only lose if their post is not the last one when the thread is inevitably locked.
Unfortunately, it looks like he's not the only one.
I don't have that syndrome.

not sure i'm convinced of that
Can we not do that? Blatant and completely irrelevant ad hominems are against the rules.

Oh, and I was arguing in mostly good faith. It's just that GC's arguments are not convincing for me.

Yeah this thread is fast veering into an internet shit-flinging match, with contributions from all sides.

Maybe it's time to lock this thread? Shame, because it's something that needs to be discussed in regards to this game.
But if we can't do it in a friendly way and constructive way, maybe its better if we don't at all and let Toady make the game the way he wants to... perhaps he can take inspiration from the good parts of this thread, if there's any to take.
Truth is... rather than discuss how such features could be implemented, in a way that everyone is satisfied.
We've reached the point of discussing... discussing whether these features should be implemented at all...
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KittyTac

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Re: Add to the creatures thoughts about sex and be able to customize their values
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2018, 04:00:51 am »

I agree with Strik3r on pretty much all of his/her points.
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