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Author Topic: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors  (Read 17399 times)

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2020, 03:52:08 am »

I think it's even less restrictive than URW because Toady said the only new features in the Steam version are accessibility stuff like better graphics (as discussed here), music, and interface. No gameplay stuff. Unless his plans changed.
Is there any gameplay stuff missing in Unreal World? Only difference seems to be that it updates slightly faster on Steam than on the website.
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waterphage13

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2020, 03:30:41 pm »

wait so stem ism selling a game that usually free? thats kinda weird ??? ???
Same model as Unreal World.
A game 26 years in development and ongoing, dwarfing dwarf fortress!

Is there will be editors for sprites?
Gimp, Paint, Photoshop? Same software people have always used. No point in Toady building a whole sprite editor when any other software will always do the job much better.
I mean, will be there texture pack support?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2020, 06:50:49 pm »

wait so stem ism selling a game that usually free? thats kinda weird ??? ???
Same model as Unreal World.
A game 26 years in development and ongoing, dwarfing dwarf fortress!

Is there will be editors for sprites?
Gimp, Paint, Photoshop? Same software people have always used. No point in Toady building a whole sprite editor when any other software will always do the job much better.
I mean, will be there texture pack support?
Support in what way?
You'll be able to make tilesets and graphics just as you've always been able to. But with all the new functionality (multiple layered sprites, caste sprites, etc) that's being implemented for the official set.

This thread for tileset authors wouldn't exist if there were no support for tileset authors.

Opening post:
Quote
DF will support quite a few new features when it comes to making tilesets. Features that are in TWBT right now and completely new features too. Old tilesets will need to be updated, and this is the place to discuss it. I just wanted to invite all tileset authors here, so that everything is in one place.
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Taffer

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2020, 05:26:30 pm »

The new embark minimaps and embark menu makes me a bit nervous, as I'm having difficulty seeing how support for this will be handled going forward. Any clarity on that? Will the new menus be exclusive to the Steam version? If so, it seems a bit worrisome that Toady will need to maintain two separate interface codebases, one for 'ASCII' and one for Steam. If the new menus are exclusive to Steam, will the old school interface be improved as well or will it rot as it is?

Will I be able to make use of those features in the free version for my graphics pack? If so, is that done painfully interface by interface or can I just draw some Taffer buttons, scrollbars, separating borders, and let the game handle the rest?

The more Toady posts the more work it looks like a proper update will be for me.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 05:36:52 pm by Taffer »
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Meph

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2020, 06:05:43 pm »

I don't think I'm allowed to post the spritesheet, but the new UI is all done using a single image file. If you, or anyone else, were to draw ascii-style borders, scroll bars, etc on it, the game would import everything. I'm not sure about changing the tile size, since it varies a lot. The game is no longer on a single grid; some of the UI tiles are 36x32 or 16x6, it's a pretty wild mix. Toady came up with the entire setup, Mike and me are just doing sprites.

If you want to update your tileset, you might want to add two sheets: One for the worldmap and one for the UI.

I'm sure that Tarn will add a pure ASCII solution, but I'm not sure how that UI would look.

The minimap should just be in ASCII and the graphical version both. It's essentially a 1px tileset, it just redraws the entire game map.

Quote
The more Toady posts the more work it looks like a proper update will be for me.
True. I'm already dreading updating MasterworkDF or my own tileset... which might be obsolete.

On the flip side, it does allow you a lot more fine control over how your tileset looks, including designations, cursors, etc. Caste-specific creatures, items per subtype, etc.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 06:07:22 pm by Meph »
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
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Taffer

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2020, 06:32:19 pm »

I don't think I'm allowed to post the spritesheet, but the new UI is all done using a single image file. If you, or anyone else, were to draw ascii-style borders, scroll bars, etc on it, the game would import everything. I'm not sure about changing the tile size, since it varies a lot. The game is no longer on a single grid; some of the UI tiles are 36x32 or 16x6, it's a pretty wild mix. Toady came up with the entire setup, Mike and me are just doing sprites.

If you want to update your tileset, you might want to add two sheets: One for the worldmap and one for the UI.

I'm sure that Tarn will add a pure ASCII solution, but I'm not sure how that UI would look.

The minimap should just be in ASCII and the graphical version both. It's essentially a 1px tileset, it just redraws the entire game map.

Quote
The more Toady posts the more work it looks like a proper update will be for me.
True. I'm already dreading updating MasterworkDF or my own tileset... which might be obsolete.

On the flip side, it does allow you a lot more fine control over how your tileset looks, including designations, cursors, etc. Caste-specific creatures, items per subtype, etc.

Great news about the single image file. Thank you for the quick, detailed reply and for the advice. It's appreciated.

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Meph

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2020, 07:24:48 pm »

No worries, that's why I'm here.

There are a few tiny sheets with some additional detail, but pretty much all of those boil down to a single tile in ASCII. Like designations: In Ascii it's just adding brown/black color, while in the graphical set we have 17 sprites. Even if they make their way into ASCII, you can replace them with a single, copied tile.

(WIP designation cursors)


Edit: Oh, in case you wonder why it's not a square 265-tile sheet: They go to raw/graphics, just like the creature sprites, each one with a graphics.txt. That way everyone has full access, both to the image and which parts of the game uses it, and it's per save. You could have different sprites in different save games.

Like this:
Code: [Select]
[TILE_PAGE:MOON_WEATHER]
[FILE:example/moon_weather.png]
[TILE_DIM:32:32]
[PAGE_DIM_PIXELS:320:32]

[TILE_GRAPHICS:MOON_WEATHER:0:0:MOON_WAXING_CRESCENT]
[TILE_GRAPHICS:MOON_WEATHER:1:0:MOON_WAXING_HALF_MOON]
[TILE_GRAPHICS:MOON_WEATHER:2:0:MOON_WAXING_GIBBOUS]
[TILE_GRAPHICS:MOON_WEATHER:3:0:MOON_FULL_MOON]
[TILE_GRAPHICS:MOON_WEATHER:4:0:MOON_WANING_GIBBOUS]
[TILE_GRAPHICS:MOON_WEATHER:5:0:MOON_WANING_HALF_MOON]
[TILE_GRAPHICS:MOON_WEATHER:6:0:MOON_WANING_CRESCENT]
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 07:28:28 pm by Meph »
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

Vordak

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2020, 04:39:54 am »

Question.
Tile for the item, that seen in a trade/stockpile menu. And a tile for the item, that lying down on floor.
Is it different tiles or not?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 04:41:41 am by Vordak »
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Meph

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2020, 06:08:52 am »

Same tile.

For equipped clothing, armor and weapons, we do make a tiny version that fits on the unit.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

Clément

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2020, 08:02:37 am »

The game is no longer on a single grid; some of the UI tiles are 36x32 or 16x6, it's a pretty wild mix.

How are the tile sizes chosen? Are they hard-coded size/ratio, or do you define them in text files? Can a modder tweak the menu density (larger/smaller margins, borders, ...)?
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Meph

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2020, 08:16:01 am »

I haven't tested it, but presumably you can tweak them in the text files.

Quote
[TILE_PAGE:INTERFACE_BITS_ZONES]
   [FILE:example/interface_bits_zones.png]
   [TILE_DIM:8:12]
   [PAGE_DIM_PIXELS:128:252]

[TILE_PAGE:ICONS_LOCATION]
   [FILE:example/icons_location.png]
   [TILE_DIM:32:32]
   [PAGE_DIM_PIXELS:128:32]

The main question is how reactive the UI will be if you suddenly use 8x12 tiles instead of 32x32 in one location, while leaving the rest as is.

EDIT: Tested it ingame. Yes, it does change the size, yet the UI still thinks it's the previous size. The button appears tinier, but you can still click where it once was. Maybe there is a setting I missed somewhere.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 10:44:31 am by Meph »
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

Taffer

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Re: Advanced Graphical DF Edition - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #71 on: September 10, 2020, 04:12:45 pm »

The game's color system is a bit of a nightmare IMO, with RGB values dynamically mapped to only 16 colors. Is this being changed? I'm concerned that if DF will be able to support many more colors in the future, then I won't be able to easily control the game's appearance anymore. I like the palettes, and I actually wish the dynamic RGB mapping would go away (because it just makes vomit turn blue on some color schemes, and more frustrating bugs).

More broadly, I'm excited that I can finally do things like have barrel graphics without messing up screw pumps, but I hope the game continues to support a simple 16 color, ASCII-esque aesthetic. I'm aiming for a Crazy 8x8/Caves of Qud 9x9 look and I hope the rush to improve the graphics doesn't make that difficult.

I assume Adventure mode will be suported, because to my understanding TWBT doesn't.

As Taffer said, the limitation to 16 colors adds a lot of clarity to the game graphics. I hope it stays simple to keep it that way. It would be nice if object graphics (workshops, weapons and so on) work similar to creature graphics - if there are some, it will be used, if there aren't, default tiles are used.
Personally, I think the most pressing limitation is not having separate tilesets for a) maps, b) interface/text, and c) everything else/the "game view". I'm sceptical about other improvements like transparency and support for visual representation of equipment/appearance but it sounds easy to remain optional like creature graphics are right now.

We haven't discussed colors and color schemes with Toady yet, but I agree. The ingame color additions muck up a lot of things; TWBTs -top files are a godsend to keep the color you actually used when making a sprite. It's certainly a topic that will be discussed; once we have a playable beta version and can see all the sprites ingame.

The Ascii version should look pretty much like it does now, but with a larger back-end that allows more changes. Including screw-pumps. :) Btw, you can do that right now with TWBT too if you like.

Revisiting this, now that I've read this quote from Toady.

Technically, yeah, though it doesn't mean much yet.  The game still uses the same colors in all of the text everywhere -- it's not like I updated those (~8000) calls to have a new color scheme everywhere.  But we now have the freedom to do more, and more can happen, over in classic as well.

Sounds like Toady's considering dropping the 16 color system in vanilla. The emphasis is mine. I would consider this a loss: perhaps increasing it to 24 or 32 (moddable) colors instead is preferable? Any shift to 24-bit "ASCII" is a loss as far as modding goes, and it sounds like it would force me to bake colors into my graphics: I'm unwilling to do so because I change my color scheme too often. I don't even think it adds anything either. I can see why adding another 8 or 16 colors to the palette would make things more pleasant to look at, but charging all the way to 24-bit colors when goblins are still 'g' is a bit much. I don't think having grass be arbitrary green color values is going to help the graphics much when it's all still just punctuation marks.

I suppose I should post this in FOTF?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 04:43:17 pm by Taffer »
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Meph

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Re: Steam DF - Questions and discussion for tileset authors
« Reply #72 on: September 10, 2020, 04:47:42 pm »

So far we havent touched colors, but even if we do, I don't think the ASCII color settings will change. You might get the ability to use a full range, but the values in the game should stay as is.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::
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