Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 11

Author Topic: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have  (Read 44974 times)

Bodycarver

  • Escaped Lunatic
    • View Profile
Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« on: September 21, 2018, 08:00:34 am »

I'm going to be reasonable when I should not be. I know very well that all forumers -- in fact anyone -- can do is argue back, but, I'm gonna waste time. This little topic is going to merely be a list. That's it. It's what no one wants, but what everyone needs: A list of commands -- not a "discussion" where all anyone can do is talk back to everyone else, plugging their ears and yelling at the top of their lungs like morons. No, it's up to you, the forumer, and the developers to agree or disagree.

There are very intellectually illiterate people who think: The more, the better. This is false. Sometimes what makes a thing good isn't about what it does have, but what it doesn't. The purpose of this thread is to post a list which makes things clear, not just about Dwarf Fortress, but about gaming in general. I gave up on video games, but in the back of my mind I had heard about Dwarf Fortress, when I had played Dwarf Fortress for the long while, I realized it does have some good qualities, but came around to have disappointments as well. All I can do is state the truth, and it's up to you to believe it or not, and no, it's not my fault if you don't listen. I'm also not held responsible because you want to whine about how I "present" what I write -- the content of what's being said, and the objective purpose thereof, is what matters.

A game is a set of functions, and a competition. The earliest games are like when the wolves race each other across the taiga. In a competition/game, your adversary is often equal or superior, and therein is great challenge. The game is strife, without strife, it is not a game. And in that strife, there is risk and reward: Loss and success. It's not a game if there's nothing to lose and or no reward.

What a game must never have -- the curses of modern gaming that ruin games:
Difficulty settings (Path of least resistance, bad gameplay)
Tips, hints, tutorials (Intel, bullshit)
Cutscenes, cinematics (Bullshit)
Maps, compass, GPS (Intel, bad gameplay)
Radar, displays (Intel)
Stealth meter, awareness meters (Intel, bad gameplay)
'Fast travel' features (Path of least resistance, bad gameplay)
Predictability (Bad gameplay)
Turn-based (Bad gameplay)

Anything which gives the player intel, without them actually having to see it for themself, should never be in a game, period. An example is FPS games where for some reason, there's always some "radar" on the bottom left-hand side of the screen, showing where all the enemies are.

Anything which has to explain the game to the player, should never be in a game. It's not learning if someone tells you how to do it. The game secrets are also going to have to change everytime, this way idiots can't just write a wikipage describing away every secret that the game has. Certain gameplay aspects will also have to change, so that the game cannot be explained.

Anything which allows the player to take the path of least resistance without outright hacking the game, should never be part of a game.

The less the player knows, the better. The less that is explained, the better. The less that CAN be explained, even better.

In addition, Dwarf Fortress is remarkably simple. There is no 'high-learning curve' or anything which people have talked about. I have already set out, a long time ago, a flawless system, which would give greater complexity and depth than the Dwarf Fortress game with 1/1000th of the work output, however I am not a game developer, and am not a producer, I merely take the content that is about and ripe. I would not give away these good mechanics, as they would just go to waste on some game full of tips, hints, tutorials, too much intel, "easy difficulty" (not like the hardest difficulty is any more difficult), cutscenes, fugly characters (like the new Elder Scrolls 6 is going to be full of...), and other nonsense. I wrote all my perfect graphs on paper, however I could also remake them with computer image-editing software. Of course for a 3D game, not birds-eye-view.

It is a shame, when I saw such things as 'easy start' crap in the game start settings, due to the graphics mod, my mind sank, almost like a strong "depression", though I do not get depressed. I knew then that it happened again: There can never be anything good. Everything's just gonna be fucked up bullshit because of idiots. Even my brother, who I rarely speak to, and he is avid on "gaming", rarely plays games anymore, cause it's just the same shit over and over again: Tips, hints, tutorials, easy mode, cinematics, story crap, linear gameplay, et cetera. I saw the Dwarf Fortress developer mention making a tutorial and I deleted the game. I was done. I knew then that it's hopeless. Only I can make a good game, and I don't care about making games. I'll just go play golf or something. Everyone I know is stopping playing games, and even people I see about, because developers can't get their shit straight, like with Crysis and World of Warcraft. As if the first Crysis game didn't have enough flaws, the 2nd and 3rd gutted every good thing that the game had. World of Warcraft just gets worse and worse, and I was a top player who quit, though I'm not sure how many of you know about WoW. The gaming environment is a wasteland.

Logged

NJW2000

  • Bay Watcher
  • You know me. What do I know?
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2018, 08:07:32 am »

PTW.
Logged
One wheel short of a wagon

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2018, 08:17:31 am »

This might be a troll. Considering that he's posted this in GD rather than in Suggestions, this seems like a bait.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 08:33:18 am by KittyTac »
Logged
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
Mostly phone-posting, sorry for any typos or autocorrect hijinks.

George_Chickens

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ghosts are stored in the balls.
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2018, 09:09:14 am »

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Dwarf Fortress. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of ancient geology most of the minerals will go over a typical player's head. There's also the dwarfs fantasy outlooks, which are deftly woven into their characterisation- their personal philosophy draws heavily from Tolkien, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just cool- they say something deep about MAGMA. As a consequence people who dislike Dwarf Fortress truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the !!cat tallow roast!! in Urist's butcher shop, which itself is a cryptic reference to catsplosions. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Tarn Adam's genius wit unfolds itself on their screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂

And yes, by the way, i DO have a dwarf tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the Urists' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 500000 dwarfbucks of my own fort (preferably lower) beforehand.
Logged
Ghosts are stored in the balls?[/quote]
also George_Chickens quit fucking my sister

voliol

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Website
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2018, 09:25:52 am »

Lol Dwarf Fortress already has inbuilt maps, stealth level displays, fast travel, and even a basic, though very outdated, tutorial (just click '?').

George_Chickens

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ghosts are stored in the balls.
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2018, 09:27:09 am »

Lol Dwarf Fortress already has inbuilt maps, stealth level displays, fast travel, and even a basic, though very outdated, tutorial (just click '?').
That's his point. Apparently he is going to create a game 1000 times more complex using graph paper. There's a hole in his story, though. Why would such a haaardcore gaemuuurr have to use a graphics pack?
(This is bait)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 09:39:24 am by George_Chickens »
Logged
Ghosts are stored in the balls?[/quote]
also George_Chickens quit fucking my sister

TamerVirus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Who cares
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2018, 09:34:11 am »

Only I can make a good game, and I don't care about making games. I'll just go play golf or something.
Logged
What can mysteriously disappear can mysteriously reappear
*Shakes fist at TamerVirus*

DG

  • Bay Watcher
  • Pull the Lever
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2018, 09:37:22 am »

PTW.

It actually cracked me up to see a PTW as the first reply.  :D
Logged

Hanslanda

  • Bay Watcher
  • Baal's More Evil American Twin
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2018, 09:39:00 am »

This'll be good. I'll bite.
Logged
Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
He's fucking with us.

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2018, 09:42:11 am »

This is highly entertaining.
Logged

CABL

  • Bay Watcher
  • Has a fetish for voring the rich
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2018, 09:49:25 am »

gr8 b8 m8, I r8 it 11/10.
Logged
Pounded in the Butt by my own Government... oh wait, that's real life.

Much less active than I used to be on these forums, but I still visit them on occasion. Will probably resume my activity in full once Dwarf Fortress will be released on Steam.

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2018, 09:50:05 am »

Full troll logic. XD

Take Chess as a counter-example:

Quote
What a game must never have -- the curses of modern gaming that ruin games:
Difficulty settings (Chess - to simulate the range of possible human opponents)
Tips, hints, tutorials (Chess again)
Maps, compass, GPS (Well, Chess has a map, no hidden movement)
Radar, displays (Chess again, with that magical units display)
'Fast travel' features (Chess has cheating fast-traveling units as well as the honest-to-goodness pawns))
Predictability (Chess again, very predictable)
Turn-based (Goddamit Chess, y u so bad)

Also I'm not sure if this is DF-specific or a cut and paste job? DF has no in-built tutorial system. It has online tutorials that people have written, but you claim to be playing golf and it's not like there aren't a zillion online guides on playing golf. And of course, golf courses have maps and stuff to guide you around the holes, so that's bad gameplay, right? By yout logic, the only good golf game would be one where there is no map and each time you start playing, the holes have been moved around.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 09:55:34 am by Reelya »
Logged

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2018, 09:53:02 am »

Pretty much ANY game falls afoul of at least one of those.
Logged
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
Mostly phone-posting, sorry for any typos or autocorrect hijinks.

TamerVirus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Who cares
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2018, 09:54:10 am »

I smell the birth of a new copypasta, folks
Logged
What can mysteriously disappear can mysteriously reappear
*Shakes fist at TamerVirus*

Fleeting Frames

  • Bay Watcher
  • Spooky cart at distance
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestions About What the Game Needs to Not Have
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2018, 10:05:13 am »

Hm. Giving player intel, having a map, being bad...Hm, I think that has actually had a solution in the past.



Existential voidscii

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For when the world is just not unforgiving enough, not large enough, not terrifying enough for the pitiful lives of your Dwarves. The UI is even more streamlined as it has stopped existing. You can't use the look tool to observe anything, and you can only tell that the game is unpaused when your Dwarves are moving.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seeing as how it's rather difficult to exit the game without a visible menu, usually you just have to wait until each blinking Dwarf light dims one by one into nothingness.

Believe it or not, but I actually find this level of Monoscii still playable. Hell, I even once did a short-lived adventure with a blind adventurer:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's very possible to survey the land using your Dwarves as guides, and you can tell when they need food or water by their various blinking and you can set up a metal military with scavenged weapons and muscle memory uniform designations.
Which reminds me, I could probably start a blind adventure in new DF...

Sadly, it never got popular enough to introduce into starter pack. I guess it still gave players too much intel.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 11