Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[TricMagic]

I would note that our Steel is Air-aligned. The Fire Iron is Fire aligned. And these shapes are meant to help direct the chant to the Chanters will.

It's not at all expensive to see if they do so, as the main cost of this Sailcart is mana and land. And the back sails can be pushed by chanters outside the cart as well.

Calling your revision Sane, MM, is derogatory to my own. Ambitious is mine, meant to grant us speed and mobility on the battlefield equal to horse drawn carts. Yours is the Safe route, and is likely to put the driver in danger of the arrows if there are no shield covering them. Not to mention that a steady wind will most like be the riding chanters job, regardless, as the others have things to do.


My design gives us an opportunity, and even if the shaped metals are merely(unlikely being Air attuned) decorations, the sails allow us to build a great deal of speed.

Your design is also missing ^ on the front, to better cut drag.. And the other part-

modified War Cart with a backward-pointing hollow cylinder.

The likely need for a physical form. Not something we know for certain, true. But it is the point to learn it with my own revision, and grab the advantage of mobility on the field with a well designed Sailcart.

Also, if this does do something, we will now know. If not, we know that too. And the success or failure of those Steel Shapes does not affect the success of the Sailcart, only it's top speed. And Empowerment is in the future, so That will boost this design as a trickle-down effect.

Hellbringers (Voiceguard Revision) (1) Madman
Windy Sailcarts (1) TricMagic

[Atomic Chicken]

Hellbringers (Voiceguard Revision) (2) Madman, AC
Windy Sailcarts (1) TricMagic

Voting for the fire wind chant weaponization, because we need that on the battlefield as soon as possible.

[Madman198237]

Yes, it is somewhat derogatory. Mostly in a jesting way, but you must admit that it is a statement of fact as well, given how far your REVISION proposal overreaches the bounds of what can reasonably be accomplished in a revision.

We don't need any sort of shape at the front to improve aerodynamics because we're not traveling at speeds which will make air resistance an issue. The carts are going to travel at the same speed as they do now (roughly a walking pace) except for the ones getting an external boost. But even then, the fact that we're using a SAIL pretty much negates any gains we're going to get from making the wooden cart more aerodynamic.

EDIT: we've already established that the carts protect people in them from arrows, actually. I guess I could/should add something about the driver using a slit to watch where he's going, but it makes little difference since we have helmets anyway.

[TricMagic]

Revising to add sails is the only place we're getting it. Also, next turn, assuming we get Empowered Chants, you're just going to add that to our Chanters... It's an endless circle of revisions.


Also, why do you think we're going to be stuck at walking speed. There's a reason for all those sails, and it's to hit 10-15 MPH. Not car level speeds, but certainly quick enough to outmaneuver anything they can whip up.


The reason our base wind cart is slow is simple, we are using a cylinder shape to create a concentrate cone of wind, which then pushes the back end.


And you still seem to be under a misinterpretation. Mana=Energy. However, Mana does not generate physical force reactions. There is no equal and opposite force at play here. Mana is used to shape the wind as we will it, and that allows us to push the cart. That force enters the sails at a steady clip, and accelerates the Sailcart. As their is no opposite force on the other side of this equation, due to using mana, the cart moves forward. And with reduced drag comes less energy exerted to keep that acceleration.

With the three sails in the back situated in such a way where the middle is lower, any air that does miss/go above that ^ ends up going between the open space between the left and right sail.



Think of the Sailcart as a boat with a sail. We manipulate the wind to push it.. I do not know how many times it takes to get this through, Mana does not naturally generate an opposite force when used. It flows through everything.

[Madman198237]

Amazing. Every word you just said, was wrong.

The cylinder shape is provided a new shape and direction for the wind through the simple expedient of being a cylinder, and the law of conservation of momentum ensures that as mass leaves the vehicle as some velocity, the vehicle gains some velocity to ensure there is no change in the total momentum of the system. Which is the most basic principle of rocket science, in fact.

ASSUMING we get Empowered Chants, which is by no means guaranteed or even likely at this point, and yes, it'd be another revision to Chanters unless we do an Infrastructure Design to ensure we can field meaningful amounts of the necessary inscribed objects. Oh well, the benefits NOW are necessary. The alternative is your "method", where we put everything off in favor of reaching some ideal level of action economy. We can't afford to wait, or we'll certainly lose more ground. We need to introduce something new or we just lose even worse than last turn, because they'll have rolled out something else while we have not done any such thing.

Also, where in the heck did you pull this "misinterpretation" from? Not only did I not mention anything you're talking about right now, I also know what's going on, and it's a FACT that the way by which we are propelling these carts RIGHT NOW is through a physical reaction as I described in the previous paragraph. The sail will work in basically the same way, though actually less efficiently than the cylinder, I'd expect, due to the ability of some of the air to escape sideways instead of all going backwards.

Holy crap, Tric, please for the love of goodness stop assuming what I'm thinking, and stop assuming you know how magic works, because this last sentence makes it obvious you do not. Mana is a way to initiate physical reactions, in fact. It causes a movement of air in the Wind chant we use to propel Windcarts. A PHYSICAL movement. This physical movement interacts with the physical objects around it just like regular moving air does.

[TricMagic]

... I just got the answer straight from Talion.

The chanter is not pushed backwards by chanting.


There is no great force that creates an equal and opposite. Therefore, using Wind on the Sails generates a Net Positive. The wind is not a part of the cart, nor in any way physically connected to it or the chanter. The Mana controls the wind, and that force goes into the sails.

And these sails billow to catch it. At the moment, the Wind Carts are woefully inefficient at using the forces generated. And have no way to steer either. There's no control. Honestly..

We don't need any sort of shape at the front to improve aerodynamics because we're not traveling at speeds which will make air resistance an issue. The carts are going to travel at the same speed as they do now (roughly a walking pace) except for the ones getting an external boost. But even then, the fact that we're using a SAIL pretty much negates any gains we're going to get from making the wooden cart more aerodynamic.

Explain the underlined part. This makes little sense based on what I know about Potential/Kinetic and EqualForce=OppisiteForce

[Madman198237]

Ooook. So, the chanter is NOT pushed backwards by Chanting, because magic. When it pushes against a sail, then you get the mess of aerodynamic forces etc., so it doesn't affect the sail-powered case. In fact Talion's reply makes nonsense of the present propulsion method, since some form of force on the person starting this wind is all-but-required to actually produce forwards motion, excepting the case of "literally just magic and there's no reasoning behind it".

Yes, the sail-wind system generates a net positive force on the cart. The sail and the chanter are all in the same system, so the wind subsequently bouncing off the sail is what creates the net positive motion for the cart alone. If you include the wind then the momentum change should still be zero, but because of spillage around and to the sides of the sail it should be less effective than the present propulsion method.

Oh, and the sail is a very large and flat surface being pushed into the air, that means it is going to generate a lot of air resistance.

[TricMagic]

The same is true of any sail. But by building up momentum bit by bit, we gather more speed. That, and the design of the Sailcart, allow us to hit those higher speeds.


Also, just now realizing the Windcarts make no sense is a bit.. Well, it uses the tube shape to generate the powerful cone of wind, which then pushes the back of the cart. And Momentum keeps it going. It can never go above walking speed however due to the limited surface area. Only so much force can be applied at once, and the drag keeps it from breaching a certain speed.

[Re-Overview of my proposal]
The 3 sails at that back offer that surface area. The center sail sits a bit down, and is blown straight ahead. The one on the left blows to the northwest to north-northwest. And the one on the right blows northeast to north-northeast.

The two on the front are angled and taut, so the and blows through the space and over them most of the time. They're set at an angle to the ground, and this /^\ of course.

The back offers forward momentum, and the front is used to turn. The back can also be put to that to help on that..


The Wind shaped, is meant to whirl and push into the sail. But at this point, I am repeating myself, aren't I..

Well.... How about a Sane(If more design than revision) idea, as MM put this thing.

[Madman198237]

The tube is pointing right out the back. It forms the wind into a cone shape...which then pushes against nothing, actually. It just blows right out the back of the cart, according to the design thing.

I'm not saying that the sails won't work, but that you're offering a lot of surface area to create a lot of drag, limiting top speed since you only have so much wind available to be caught. A single sail will both be less expensive (The amount of wood and canvas you're adding is probably going to add another 1-2 Land cost, which will be enough IIRC to push it into VE territory) and equally effective for less complexity.

Relying on the Chanter to turn and steer from the back means that, like in an actual ship, the Chanter will need to be elevated to see over the front of the cart, meaning that he's going to be exposed. Exposed enough that the enemy skirmishers will, if they are as effective as you are claiming they will be at sniping the Hellbringers, kill every single one of the Chanters propelling those carts, leaving them stationary, forcing the guys within to keep their heads down or get picked off one by one.

[Jilladilla]

Mobility is great and all, but there is something to be said for raw firepower. That being said, the sailcarts are a close second really, I'd likely pick it if we didn't get the Wind of Fire.

Hellbringers (Voiceguard Revision) (3) Madman, AC, Jilladilla
Windy Sailcarts (1) TricMagic

[Madman198237]

If burning the monks alive wasn't on the table, I wouldn't have even proposed the Voiceguard revision, I'd've gone straight for a (simpler) cart revision to allow us to just drive through their phalanxes without even bothering with fighting them normally.

[TricMagic]

Forested Hills (1) TricMagic
Jungle (1) TricMagic
Arcanis (-)

Vote 2. Though we are not as prepared for the Xi Shan I'd like.

[Madman198237]

Forested Hills (2) TricMagic, Madman
Jungle (2) TricMagic, Madman
Arcanis (0)

It'd make a lot more sense for us to do this after revisions like normal ARs. Ah well.

We can literally burn the forest out from around any would-be ambushers, and we're well-armored now. Partly, anyway. Next turn will be a good turn to advance into the Xi Shan territory.

[TricMagic]

Do not burn the Jungles. Our Smoke and Woodcraft are second to none. Though I would not be averse to popping out of the woodwork to burn a BM to ash..


This is going to prove a pain filled wake-up call to them, isn't it...

 

OK, so it goes into effect next turn. Not great, but not crippling. Oh, and our Jarls will wear the Improved Scale Armor *now*, I'd assume, so we should be able to batter our happy ways through their phalanx and through their monks as well.

For this revision, my thought is pretty simple:

Hellbringers/Voiceguard Revision
A new division of the Voiceguard, the Hellbringers use Wind of Fire to scour the unworthy, the weak, and the foolish from the world. In battle, they focus on clearing out the enemy's unarmored units first, then move on to burn any exposed skin of the most tightly-packed portions of the enemy army. Right now, this means they should start by killing the unarmored monks before turning their flames onto the enemy's central phalanx.

The Windsingers are tasked with combat as well, now, using their wind during skirmisher combat, to send enemy volleys of course by laying streams of wind just above and in front of enemy archers. They only need to lift the wind for brief periods when our own crossbowmen are prepared to send out coordinated volleys.

EDIT: Added a bit about Windsinger adjustments. There's no reason for them NOT to be doing this already, save that we...didn't tell them to and our commanders didn't think about it despite it turning crossbows' slow firing rates into an advantage.

While we're on the subject-

The Shroudweavers should also focus on disruption tactics. If an army creates a phalanx, break said phalanx into sections. Strike to cut off pieces of their flanks from the main force, then cut said pieces apart. A rinse and repeat.

Our Skirmishers in the jungle served well to cut off any followers. Using smoke to block paths and popping out of the woods to fire off quick strikes before retreating. Harry and Harass, as well as burn them to ash before they know we're attacking. Then use smoke to cover the retreat. Rinse and repeat as we kill them off.


Ah, this is just a general advisory. Work with the other groups of Chanters. Combine your skills, smoke breaking apart formations, corralling them. Burning them when they have nowhere to go.


Not really something to add to the revision, other than better strategies on how to disrupt. That's part of what our smoke is good for.

[Madman198237]

We are sorta-kinda-maybe not actually responsible for the tactics and strategies of our generals, which is too bad because they're using really suboptimal ones, jumping straight into the deep end of "cripplingly stupid" at one or two points.