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Author Topic: military uniforms able to include musical instruments  (Read 398 times)

anewaname

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military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« on: October 07, 2018, 03:55:17 pm »

I only found this post that seemed along the lines. But the idea is, a military uniform could include an instrument, and that a squad member would use it in certain cases, and the usage could effect how nearby friendly and enemy civ members fight, changing their willingness and focus in a fight.
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iceball3

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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2018, 04:19:07 pm »

In addition to this, I'd argue that a future military uniform expansion could be good for the multitude of roles one might need to be ready for a fight in. For example, wheelbarrows for near-combat item salvage, documents pertaining to law or treatise so a member of militia can act as a diplomatic surrogate, or as an assistant or squire to such diplomats. Offerings, foodstuffs, camping equipment, pack animals, good luck charms, emblems, stationery, research and expeditionary equipment, all of these can be functions served by militia members in a home or away squad that might not necessarily require an off-duty specialist.

A nice little spot of perspective of what a militiaman in organized armies could go back to as early as the Roman Empire, even.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-l_EbXE3LU
This actually might lead to a useful suggestion: perhaps a feature where dwarves may budget the time they assign to the next few actions, in anticipation of shared meals with family and friends, brothers/sisters in arms, and colleagues? This could help solve the issues where dwarves fail to socialize with each other when there's work queued at any point of their waking hours.

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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2018, 10:25:45 pm »

At that point, why not expand uniforms to include civilians? If non-combat items are added to the uniform code, that seems like a significant step toward that. (Unless it goes against Toady's vision, but considering that we can unilaterally decide what jobs dwarves can do, uniforms decisions don't seem too far out. Or the bulk of the difficulty of coding civilian uniforms could be elsewhere.)
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2018, 07:01:55 am »

At that point, why not expand uniforms to include civilians? If non-combat items are added to the uniform code, that seems like a significant step toward that. (Unless it goes against Toady's vision, but considering that we can unilaterally decide what jobs dwarves can do, uniforms decisions don't seem too far out. Or the bulk of the difficulty of coding civilian uniforms could be elsewhere.)

I guess that might be planned, seeing as woodcutter and miner jobs already use the uniform system behind the scenes IIRC (which is why they have frustrating interactions with millitia recruitment/outfitting)
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SixOfSpades

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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 02:41:53 am »

. . . a military uniform could include an instrument, and that a squad member would use it in certain cases, and the usage could effect how nearby friendly and enemy civ members fight, changing their willingness and focus in a fight.
So, in a word, Bards. Personally, I would vote No, largely because of the age-old Bard problem: If you're able-bodied, you would be better off actually fighting than trying to play a rah-rah cheerleader, and if you aren't able-bodied, you'd be better off getting the hell out of the way. I've got nothing against the warriors themselves yelling inspiring/terrifying/etc. battle cries while in combat, and even singing, but if you're in a combat situation and find that your two hands are clutching a musical instrument then you're doing it wrong. This might change during the Magic Arc, however, where enchanted instruments might indeed make Bards a viable option.

As for non-Bards, yeah, I can see certain instruments being used to sound signals like "Enemy Sighted", "Caravan Approaching," "Raise / Lower the Drawbridge", "Shieldwall," ""Charge," "Defensive Retreat", etc. . . . but these a) would have to wait for such military actions to implemented in the first place, and b) are already in the game, what with its existing auto-pause warnings and civilian alerts. So your Hammerdwarves carrying bugles or whatever would largely be for flavor and that's it. Granted, I'm all for flavor, but we must admit that it pretty much stops there--unless actual magic is concerned, the most "effective" combination of musical instruments & military uniforms that I can think of is a marching band on parade. Which, admittedly, would be pretty cool.


In addition to this, I'd argue that a future military uniform expansion could be good for the multitude of roles one might need to be ready for a fight in. For example, wheelbarrows for near-combat item salvage,
Stretchers, and Stretcher-bearers, for hustling wounded dwarves out of combat ASAP. Although I can certainly see dwarves preferring to use the more utilitarian wheelbarrows instead.

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documents pertaining to law or treatise so a member of militia can act as a diplomatic surrogate, or as an assistant or squire to such diplomats.
Such objects would work better, I feel, tied to the position of diplomat/clerk than to the actual military uniform.

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Offerings, foodstuffs, . . . good luck charms, emblems,
Eating utensils, small tools, images of deities and/or loved ones, hair care items, games/toys, etc., could and indeed should be carried (or at least desired) by all dwarves, civilians included.


At that point, why not expand uniforms to include civilians?
On a related note, why are there no leather gauntlets/bracers? I can kit my civilians out in leather armor, helms, and high boots, but their forearms (one of their most exposed parts, when fighting animals) are just sticking out naked.
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anewaname

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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 01:50:18 pm »

@SixOfSpades
Not bards.... especially not any of the candified RPG bard concepts. Much more the concept of instruments as soldiers and warriors would use them, for forming group identity and for signaling to other units.

So, what I am talking about falls in your "non-bard" category.

Yes, the DF military alert system already handles part of the long-distance communication between dwarfs, presumably with yells, bells, drums, etc. And the ability of the overseer to issue squad orders to redirect dwarfs to other locations also implies other "long-distance communications" between the dwarfs. These are both systems that give the overseer some control over dwarf movements. I'm not suggesting an overseer to have any control over how or when the instrument is used. The DF military alert system and the squad order system have no effect on how dwarf personalities respond  to what is happening around them.

I expect there is a development plan for how military units will behave onscreen as groups, and instruments could play a role in this. But, the implementation of instruments as part of a uniform and as a tool used to perform an action, could be implemented separately.

When I wrote, "the usage could effect how nearby friendly and enemy civ members fight, changing their willingness and focus in a fight.", I was considering my memories of some large battles and how they "evolve" from a large conflict into small groups of one-sided fights. The dwarfs in the battles gain negative memories of being attacked, receiving wounds, seeing dead bodies, etc, but do they gain positive emotional reactions from seeing friendlies nearby during the fight? And what about frightening or inspiring sounds from those friendlies? That is what lead me to consider instruments as something that could be introduced in the military uniforms, but in some ways, maybe the absence of combat log thought messages regarding nearby friendlies is what the suggestion is about.

Regarding the idea of supporting items for a squad, maybe a separate squad equipment screen, similar to squad level ammunition and supplies screens, could reserve access to additional useful items they might bring with them on raids, patrols, etc,
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Bumber

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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 03:43:38 am »

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« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 03:45:41 am by Bumber »
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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2018, 04:42:10 pm »

Foodstuff is actually already implemented. Dwarves will take a backpack with rations and a waterskin with drink with them, so they can remain at there post longer.

That out of the way, Instrument: I have been in some great battles (LARP) where a marching drum or a signal horn really lifted the spirits. My suggestion would be that soldiers could get a modifier that works like martial trance or enraged right now. just a small boost compared to what those boost, but in the same catagory. As for signal horns, they are intended for larger battles (i think). So if your the kind of guy that raises a 100 dwarf army, good for you. but i would suggest we keep that kind of signals to the larger civ-level armies.
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iceball3

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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 05:23:35 pm »

Foodstuff is actually already implemented. Dwarves will take a backpack with rations and a waterskin with drink with them, so they can remain at there post longer.

That out of the way, Instrument: I have been in some great battles (LARP) where a marching drum or a signal horn really lifted the spirits. My suggestion would be that soldiers could get a modifier that works like martial trance or enraged right now. just a small boost compared to what those boost, but in the same catagory. As for signal horns, they are intended for larger battles (i think). So if your the kind of guy that raises a 100 dwarf army, good for you. but i would suggest we keep that kind of signals to the larger civ-level armies.
Even before any bonuses like that, it's worth noting that dwarves can be cowed, running in fear or collapsing in terror. It might be beneficial for instruments to attempt to combat these situations more directly, as it's within the domain of "morale bonuses" while also being rather important.
When formations come into play, instruments can also help avoid dwarves from being provoked into breaking formation, too. Say, for example, when goblin scouts what run fast and insult my crossbowdwarfs' beard in an attempt to make them leap from their battlements in rage, a soothing tone might prevent the few dwarves who are both anger-propensitied and overall stressed enough to do it (the actual madman) from actually doing it.

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 05:31:10 pm »

Urist McStandardBearer is simulating bagpipes.
Militia Commander: This musician is lousy
Axelord: I listened to a poor rendition of War March. No I am not dejected by this.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2018, 02:46:19 am »

Dedicated musicians have played a large part in war in the past - for conveying information, raising morale, and intimidating enemies.  War drums, Greek war flutists, bugles, and bagpipes are classical examples, and of course there are countless war songs and marches throughout the ages.  Musicians and other entertainers were also employed between battles to keep up the morale of the troops.

While I don't know of any war musicians who were also primary footsoldiers, in many examples the musicians were armed and had to be capable of fighting since their importance to the cohesion of their army actually made them ideal targets for the enemy.

It probably isn't a high priority since right now DF battles are extremely disorganized affairs but I wouldn't object to seeing some musicians and other entertainers to accompany the armies, and a morale mechanic that incorporates music.  Maybe songs could have designated "moods", so you'd have certain songs for boosting certain moods, and some of these could be specifically designated war songs for raising morale.

Cathar

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Re: military uniforms able to include musical instruments
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 06:42:50 am »

Also the chinese used flag to signal forward orders, and drum to order retreats. With that said, when musical instruments were used, be it in the bronze age or in the napoleonic era, we were dealing with armies ranging in the thousands, making sound signals a valuable tool for coordination, while having an officer banging a drum would not detract too much firepower from the army. The effect on morale is debatable tho, it was mainly used to read battle situations and adapt quickly.

In DF if you go into a HUGE battle you'll have some 60-100 soldiers. They are all in sight of each other.

Edit : As for hired musicians and bands, they filled pretty much the same role as camp followers in animating the army's life. Campaign are long and boring. Sieges even more so. Hiring distraction was not uncommon, that doesn't means the group of bellydancers will join your troops when they storm the castle tho

Edit 2 : Not that I'm against the suggestion, but I think in that scale, having the ability to attach flags to polearms and give those to commanders and captains would be much, much more practical than flutes and triangles
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 07:13:04 am by Cathar »
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