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Author Topic: How to return battle system in DF above v.34 - discussion and decisions.  (Read 9536 times)

High_priest_of_Ru

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THE KEY PROBLEM:

Have you met the problem, that AI doesn't participate in battle of their friends with player?

This problem enters DF after 34 version. When you are became aggressive towards anyone in 40 or 42 as adventurer, it will result only in cries and run of your victim and some psychopathic watching of another dwellers of the site.

Really, as for me its awful bug which nullifies fun from the game and forces to use only old versions of DF. Even if i attacks faction leader in his own house, most of the guards ignores fighting. Completely. I remember an attempt when i attacked powerful vampire lady, and she only ran from me and cried, when her guards and civilians absolutely did nothing. When i killed this lady after about 30 minutes of boring racing, i got understanding of her equipment and battle skills as immense good (she wore all masterwork items and were dodged my attacks as quite experienced master-in-evade). So this lady could kill my adventurer in a couple of hits - but the vampire which killed thousands of living, could only die in racing.

I tried to set national bravery (i don't remember correct name of this token, so it's the one, minotaurs have at 100) at max value, but civilians and many armed guards in castle were still ran from badly armored attacker with whip or wooden spear. An experiment shows that aggression in mixed castle with about 50 dwellers in one big keeplike room results in 3 or 4 defenders (bard, 1 or 2 cookers and 1 combatant), when there were at least 7 armed guards. Another dwellers were only ran, cried and ... But stop, that's all what they did.

It's even more awful when i taking quest on killing the bandit and when i entering bandit camp i see fking friendly bandits... I tried to declare my intentions in dialogue - but it failed. They just cry and don't fight with me. The most impressive result i'd got - single bandit after my attack were fought with me. His friends did nothing. Nice, yes?

I don't want to teach anyone, but Medieval Ages were quite cruel, and even villagers weren't easy to be plundered for bands of robbers. They fought, especially when they had an advantage in numbers. What about warriors - the meaning of their life were in defense of their masters. That's what they were paid for.

Of course, situation in 34 version or earlier, when even domestic animals of nation attacks its enemy, is quite controversial too - but it's FUNNY!

And i can't say, that such hardcore roguelike, such unique openworld fantasy game with complex battle system as Dwarf Fortress brings me fun with this casual update of morale. Adventure mode in DF now is not even close to old hardcore and not even close to realism - and this hurts me as i can't enjoy updates of taverns and another sides of adventure DF as coming magic.

So the question: how to return battle system in DF? I mean, in 40 and 42 there are no battles it all without strong attempts of player to set terror and fear among hearts of peaceful good guys? (which are so awful that even bogeymans are fear to enter their sites at night). Is there any mod or something else fixing that weird bug?


WAYS TO RESOLVE:

BASIC WAY - Blessing Creatures:
This one we need all the ways as it allows to partially and softly resolve this problem, increasing civilized creatures' skills. This automatically improves their morale. Without this many creatures will run from any attackers from way bellow.

Don't think this will make creatures Terminatorlike - battle system in recent version is more casual and based on random more than on skills.
"Bravery", as in the personality token, does not seem to affect much, although, very high values are rumored to increase the chance of a civilian joining a fight, so, yeah, you can try that. The effect of the Discipline skill should be more noticeable though, I think.

If you're looking for a challenge specifically, I would recommend adding some more natural skills to your potential opponents, because the skill difference between combatants in DF is times more important than the numbers advantage. Here's what I use personally:
Spoiler: for humans and goblins (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for elves (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for kobolds (click to show/hide)
You can play with the numbers here to your liking - just take note that the value of 15 is max (Legendary). Natural skills do not affect adventurers, so you'll still have to train as usual.

You can also get some combat mod to top it off - mine (in the sig) or Grimlocke's, for instance. The game itself has a lot of loose ends in terms of combat, and it is yet uncertain when the development returns to it again. For now, such mods offer fixes and improvements to combat wherever possible.

Additional Improvement 1 - Domestic Death:
This variant allows to spawn different evil creatures as domestic animals, allowing them to attack dwellers of site. Fun depends on site generator. This changes DF atmosphere a bit.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Additional Improvement 2 - Really Evil Nations:
This variant allows to make many creatures so hostile as undead in trivial DF are. This allows to create and sustain really big bloodbath. Atmosphere is injured, however. As it based on adding creatures tags 'Opposed to Life' and this means they're all part of one big evil faction, you need to chose which nations will be evil (for example, dwarfes are evil and humans are trivial, than in mixed settlement dwarfs will attack everyone who not undead. So trivial creatures will run and fight with evil ones.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Additional Improvement 3 - There Is No Surrender:
This variant allows to partially resolve the problem slightly by turning all possible conflicts into "No Quarter" (maximum lethal) state. Quite soft decision.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Thanks to all members of DF community for taking part in this discussion! More ways to bloody fight in the name of Armok!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 03:55:55 am by High_priest_of_Ru »
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George_Chickens

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2018, 03:39:03 am »

Have you tried version 44?
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High_priest_of_Ru

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2018, 09:36:14 am »

Have you tried version 44?

Yes. In last version it looks the same. Fight with animals works properly, but not with intelligent creatures.

Does it looks different for you? I tried to play on some Windows based system, it worked bad everywhere.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 09:38:29 am by High_priest_of_Ru »
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Casany

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2018, 08:48:20 am »

Honestly, having the same issue. Friendly bandits, half the time friendly night creatures, and friendly titans. Whenever I attack a noble or a king or queen, either no one else attacks and they run or one person does.

I dunno, it is kinda off-putting when you're in a titans shrine just slicing him up as he stands there, refusing to attack. Of course after like 2 hits and 2 attempts to yield by the Titan he starts attacking, but aren't they naturally supposed to be hostile, along with every other beast? Same with bandits. I'll start attacking the leader (Who will yield, and then start running) while the other two watch with the simple "It is horrifying" or "It was inevitable" when he dies.

Any way I could go about like, fixing this issue? Last time I played was two weeks ago too, so simply updating isn't going to fix anything.
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High_priest_of_Ru

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2018, 10:42:15 am »

Honestly, having the same issue. Friendly bandits, half the time friendly night creatures, and friendly titans. Whenever I attack a noble or a king or queen, either no one else attacks and they run or one person does.

I dunno, it is kinda off-putting when you're in a titans shrine just slicing him up as he stands there, refusing to attack. Of course after like 2 hits and 2 attempts to yield by the Titan he starts attacking, but aren't they naturally supposed to be hostile, along with every other beast? Same with bandits. I'll start attacking the leader (Who will yield, and then start running) while the other two watch with the simple "It is horrifying" or "It was inevitable" when he dies.

Any way I could go about like, fixing this issue? Last time I played was two weeks ago too, so simply updating isn't going to fix anything.

We're sharing this pain)

Can we contact Toady One via this forum to ask him about possible solution? Because i tried to report this bug via Mantis, and got no answer.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2018, 11:04:45 am »

Honestly, having the same issue. Friendly bandits, half the time friendly night creatures, and friendly titans. Whenever I attack a noble or a king or queen, either no one else attacks and they run or one person does.

I dunno, it is kinda off-putting when you're in a titans shrine just slicing him up as he stands there, refusing to attack. Of course after like 2 hits and 2 attempts to yield by the Titan he starts attacking, but aren't they naturally supposed to be hostile, along with every other beast? Same with bandits. I'll start attacking the leader (Who will yield, and then start running) while the other two watch with the simple "It is horrifying" or "It was inevitable" when he dies.

Any way I could go about like, fixing this issue? Last time I played was two weeks ago too, so simply updating isn't going to fix anything.

We're sharing this pain)

Can we contact Toady One via this forum to ask him about possible solution? Because i tried to report this bug via Mantis, and got no answer.
You may have noticed the hundreds of other bugs on mantis. If it's reported, it's reported, will get fixed when the one single human working on the game decides it's time to fix adventurer combat. You won't get a reply. What kind of reply would you expect? Thank you, yes I'll fix this bug. I'd much rather time was spent fixing bugs than being polite on mantis.
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High_priest_of_Ru

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2018, 12:09:03 pm »

You may have noticed the hundreds of other bugs on mantis. If it's reported, it's reported, will get fixed when the one single human working on the game decides it's time to fix adventurer combat. You won't get a reply. What kind of reply would you expect? Thank you, yes I'll fix this bug. I'd much rather time was spent fixing bugs than being polite on mantis.

I got it. But this concrete bug exists in some years and can not be compared with minor bug with menu or drinking or something else. It is major bug, or even critical, which prevents adequate fighting in adventure mode. What kind of activity you are realizing as adventurer? I mean, is it some kind of talking or running or building which can bring fun without fight?

Because problems with adventurer mode's AI looks like problems with building in fortress mode. I mean, i got no game without fight as you'd get no game without building. Would you have fun with 7 dwarves without opportunity to build?

It's not a bug. That's just a critical problem with part of the game. IDK why some years are not enough time to fix it. You say that a man will find his own time? Yap. I understand. But i mean, that it is not a game with this bug. If someone publish his game, he awaits something? At least he awaits that publishing product is a game. But now it's nothing to play in adventurer mode as there is nobody to fight with. The meaning of RPG is fighting - yes? There are some aims more, but DF have no plot or graphic to read or enjoy. It's fight. At least it WAS fight.

I can't believe that since first update of 40 version there were no bugreports of morale in adventurer mode. More - i remember a guy who said about posting bugreport on mantis about 'dat couple of years ago.  So the reply i am awaiting is reply about - will this bug be fixed? Or its just 'feature' or something unfixable else?

P.S. I don't mean any demands to Toady - it's his decision to publish or update the game as he want. Its just answer to Shonai and a question for community members or to the developer.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2018, 01:06:55 pm »

I get attacked and fight things in Adventurer all the time. It's not like this happens in every encounter.
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High_priest_of_Ru

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2018, 01:26:39 pm »

I get attacked and fight things in Adventurer all the time. It's not like this happens in every encounter.

In last version?

Well, i'm not speaking about encounters. To the truth, in last version i didn't try 'em as i tried in 30+ versions and 42+. There were real fights with big bands of random attackers in 30+ ones - and couple of random and peaceful adventurers in 40+.

Can you try to attack dwellers or leaders of any random settlement and look at how many of them will fight with aggressor? Probably your mods helps you?

P.S. Also i heard that if the adventurer is experienced enough - i don't know how many monsters or men should he beat for that, but guess that the thing is in reputation with faction, so it needs to have quite bad one with quite good fame - civilization becomes complete enemy of adventurer and its members fight with him instantly. But the thing is in numbers - and in very big numbers. And i am bored to kill helpless people instead of interesting strategic fighting (as new update of moving speed made fights very interesting.. but it's hard to enjoy true fight, not racing the runner).
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 01:38:08 pm by High_priest_of_Ru »
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Cathar

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2018, 02:28:43 pm »

In the last version, I had brutal fights against civilian goblins as I tried to sneak through their fortress and received perma injuries in the process. Are you playing as a hero/demigod? Or as an elephant man demi god with all skill point in fight related skills? Are you savescumming?

Franckly this game has been a endless mine of challenge for me.

High_priest_of_Ru

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2018, 02:31:26 pm »

In the last version, I had brutal fights against civilian goblins as I tried to sneak through their fortress and received perma injuries in the process. Are you playing as a hero/demigod? Or as an elephant man demi god with all skill point in fight related skills? Are you savescumming?

Franckly this game has been a endless mine of challenge for me.

Never savescum, always villager-human, lasher or spearman with skil in throwing if playing last version as in old ones AI can't throw and i don't wanna cheat. First training in wild nature - swimming, hunting. Then trying to attack people.
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Cathar

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2018, 02:41:22 pm »

That's extremely strange... I have met people who didn't want to fight, but never experienced a situation where people would just run away from me by default. I get regularly attacked by wildlife, and goblins just run at me screaming.

That's really wierd

Sver

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2018, 02:46:13 pm »

Do you have [NATURAL_SKILL:DISCIPLINE:1] modded in for civilized creatures? If not, I highly recommend to add it, so as to avoid at least some of the morale screwiness, both for the adventure and the fortress. Add the same or stronger discipline to other creatures, and you can get some braver trolls, dogs etc. - as war animals, they can be insufferable cowards too.
This does not address the hostility bug itself - which no doubt exists, but seems to only affect encounters or situations where the 'loyalty system' is at conflict - but it certainly smoothes the gameplay.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 02:48:30 pm by Sver »
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High_priest_of_Ru

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2018, 02:52:11 pm »

Do you have [NATURAL_SKILL:DISCIPLINE:1] modded in for civilized creatures? If not, I highly recommend to add it, so as to avoid at least some of the morale screwiness, both for the adventure and the fortress. Add the same or stronger discipline to other creatures, and you can get some braver trolls, dogs etc. - as war animals, they can be insufferable cowards too.
This does not address the hostility bug itself - which no doubt exists, but seems to only affect encounters or situations where the 'loyalty system' is at conflict - but it certainly smoothes the gameplay.

No, i am speaking about fresh, just downloaded DF without any mods and plays with raws.

I'll try to use this token, thanks you a lot. I am interesting in fight with civilized creatures in 40+, especially in attacking cities with army of creatures belonging to another faction. Mount&Bladelike wish, i know)

Can i modify another tokens? I mean, do you know another ones except bravery, which can help to fix this situation a bit?
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Sver

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Re: How to return battle system in DF above v.34?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2018, 03:17:07 pm »

"Bravery", as in the personality token, does not seem to affect much, although, very high values are rumored to increase the chance of a civilian joining a fight, so, yeah, you can try that. The effect of the Discipline skill should be more noticeable though, I think.

If you're looking for a challenge specifically, I would recommend adding some more natural skills to your potential opponents, because the skill difference between combatants in DF is times more important than the numbers advantage. Here's what I use personally:
Spoiler: for humans and goblins (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for elves (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: for kobolds (click to show/hide)
You can play with the numbers here to your liking - just take note that the value of 15 is max (Legendary). Natural skills do not affect adventurers, so you'll still have to train as usual.
Edit, for context:: 5 = Proficient; 9 = Professional; 10 = Accomplished.

You can also get some combat mod to top it off - mine (in the sig) or Grimlocke's, for instance. The game itself has a lot of loose ends in terms of combat, and it is yet uncertain when the development returns to it again. For now, such mods offer fixes and improvements to combat wherever possible.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 03:22:07 pm by Sver »
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