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Author Topic: Fighting hydras is tiring.  (Read 2065 times)

erlz

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Fighting hydras is tiring.
« on: November 22, 2018, 03:12:47 pm »

So I learned that fighting hydras tires your character very quickly.This seems to be caused by them being able to attack very many times in a short time-span.Specifically it seems that you lose energy even when an enemy attack completely misses, without you doing any blocking or dodging. I found this out when I was fighting a hydra. Though I was not actually attacking it, I wanted to do some training and just let it attack me while only rarely countering with punches and scratches. At the start of the fight I did try to disable its legs with my axe so that it would be slower and that it would be easier to damage it but I was not able to do that before getting tired. This is not a problem most of the time since if I was fighting a normal humanoid they would tire themselves out before me and most creatures in the game don't multi-attack.But since hydras have [NOEXERT] it's not a problem at all for them to constantly attack. I think that how this works is fine, but I feel like it would be better if getting attacked, tired you slightly slower or if there was a diminishing return if there were enough (4-5?) attacks at the same time. If the current way stays that is fine too since what mostly got me into trouble was not taking the hydra seriously and just letting it attack me.



So while I'm here I might as well tell how the fight against the hydra went.

I was playing a jaguar man and I had two companions with me; a dwarf spearman and a human maceman. As I stopped close to the hydra's cave I left my companions some way from it since I didn't want them to die or take the kill, then I went looking for the beast. I quickly found it outside traveling south-east. It noticed me and approached. At first I only did a few punches and so because I wanted to train a bit and not kill it quickly.I did hack its legs a few times but I wasn't able to ground it. Then I underestimated it and started just walking around. I did this for a bit before noticing that I had gotten tired.I was surprised at how fast it happened since I did not to much dodging or blocking.I started to worry a bit and tried to again hack and scratch at its legs. While my defensive skills were high my best offensive skill was striker, my axe was only level three. As such I was having a hard time cutting through all the flesh. I tried attacking its upper body in hopes of hitting either its lungs or heart but only managing to tear the scales. Same story on the lower body;I tried to hit its stomach hopefully causing bleeding and making it nauseous but again only torn scales. I did get an strike on one of its throats but it did not tear a major artery like I had hoped.At this point I thought about my options.I could try to run but I was already tired and would probably collapse from over-exertion before getting far enough. At the time I did not think about getting to my companions not that it would have necessarily worked but  maybe I could have made it, sure they would be killed but better them than me.Nothing was coming to mind so I continued attacking. There was a scary moment where the hydra bit me in the upper leg but due to my good armor user (and luck) it did no damage, also very importantly it did not latch on. I continued fighting to no avail.None of my hits were doing good damage. The hydra then again got a hit.This time with its claws, raking me in the upper body.The blow was deflected without receiving any damage. The next hit was more devastating. It bit me in the upper arm causing the force of the blow to tear the muscles in the arm to pieces and causing me to lose hold of my iron shield.Well a big reprieve was that it did not latch on.At this point I was starting to accept my eventual demise.I dodged around for a bit, before I suddenly had an idea.First I put my axe away, then I grabbed my shield from the ground so that I had additional protection.The area had a lot of trees around it which gave me the idea:maybe I could dodge around a tree, giving me a chance to rest.I dodged towards a nearby tree until I was next to it.Then I started just dodging around the tree, first north-east then south-east, south-west and finally back to the starting position north-west. 
                 
                                                           @
 (O=Tree) (@=me)                             @O@
                                                           @

This worked great, it slowed down the hydra and gave me time to rest.After doing this for a long time I finally lost the Tired at the bottom of the screen.I then started hacking at the hydra with my full strength.I still jumped around the tree to keep myself from tiring out again.I still was not able to do any damage to its lower or upper body. But its necks, heads and legs very much more vulnerable.I hacked the hydra until finally one of my hits tore one of the leg's muscle and bruised the bone bringing it down.This slowed it to a literal crawl, and so I did not need the tree anymore.The beast was bleeding large amounts of blood and was now pale.I walked around it as it tried to get to me.With the large blood loss it did not take long for the hydra to bleed out.When I next fight against a hydra I will definitely be more careful.
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Sver

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2018, 07:32:32 pm »

As far as I understand, misses are not actually wildly inaccurate swings at the target right in front of the attacker, but rather a result of a successful defensive roll. There was an explanation on this subject somewhere: with each attack, the game compares the offensive roll of an attacker (based on weapon skill) and the defensive roll of a target (based on dodge skill); the blocking and parrying rolls also come into play there somewhere, but appear to be not as important or effective as the dodging roll. So, the misses are most likely considered "dodging on the same tile", thus, exhausting the target.

Dodging away from the opponent(s) is probably the best defense when it comes to multiple attacks being aimed at the player, because you can avoid them all at once for the cost of a single action. As is illustrated by your story, indeed.

Edit: Also, hydras don't have major arteries in their throats, probably because that would make them too weak for a megabeast.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 07:38:52 pm by Sver »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2018, 07:56:42 pm »

Nice dude, the recovery of your hydra hunt was the stuff of professional adventuring - losing your left arm is just a flesh wound after all!

erlz

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 06:23:00 am »

As far as I understand, misses are not actually wildly inaccurate swings at the target right in front of the attacker, but rather a result of a successful defensive roll. There was an explanation on this subject somewhere: with each attack, the game compares the offensive roll of an attacker (based on weapon skill) and the defensive roll of a target (based on dodge skill); the blocking and parrying rolls also come into play there somewhere, but appear to be not as important or effective as the dodging roll. So, the misses are most likely considered "dodging on the same tile", thus, exhausting the target.

Dodging away from the opponent(s) is probably the best defense when it comes to multiple attacks being aimed at the player, because you can avoid them all at once for the cost of a single action. As is illustrated by your story, indeed.

Edit: Also, hydras don't have major arteries in their throats, probably because that would make them too weak for a megabeast.




Thank you for the explanation, I did think that missing attacks could be like you just sidestepping or otherwise dodging the attack without needing to dodge to another tile but I wasn't sure that was it.Yes, dodging away from attacks is something I do when fighting bogeymen or other dangerous/numerous enemies.Specifically I like doing a multi-attack with one actual attack and then dodging away, this means they can't all gang you at once.You also dodge all their attacks for a single action, which I Just now reading this learned.And it also makes your weapons come with you if it gets stuck which you don't want to happen against bogeymen, at least if you are not skilled enough.Huh I didn't know that hydras don't have major throat arteries, though like you said it would probably make them too easy to kill.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 08:32:11 am »

Though do keep in mind you can actually lose your grip on your weapon if it is lodged in an enemy, leaving the weapon embedded in their body and you unarmed

Pyoro

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 10:16:57 am »

Though do keep in mind you can actually lose your grip on your weapon if it is lodged in an enemy, leaving the weapon embedded in their body and you unarmed

You can always wrestle to regain possession of the weapon, though
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Bumber

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 06:53:12 pm »

Though do keep in mind you can actually lose your grip on your weapon if it is lodged in an enemy, leaving the weapon embedded in their body and you unarmed
You can always wrestle to regain possession of the weapon, though
Doesn't that count as trying to wrestle with a huge hydra?
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Cathar

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2018, 09:53:01 pm »

Doesn't that count as trying to wrestle with a huge hydra?

I believe the stabbed person can grab the weapon in their body to contest its retrieval, and later on gain ownership of it. I mean if you got stabbed you're probably not in a good shape, but I'm sure it's a possibility (and a badass way to die)

Else I have never failed to wrestle back an embeded weapons, included in megabeasts
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duckman

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 01:11:39 am »

Doesn't that count as trying to wrestle with a huge hydra?

I believe the stabbed person can grab the weapon in their body to contest its retrieval, and later on gain ownership of it. I mean if you got stabbed you're probably not in a good shape, but I'm sure it's a possibility (and a badass way to die)

Else I have never failed to wrestle back an embeded weapons, included in megabeasts
The only way to contest an embedded weapon is to grab it with a grasping part like a hand, pincer, or tentacle. Hydras don't have grasping parts*, so they can only dislodge and drop embedded weapons or release them back into the hands of the person that's currently wielding them.

*Aside from the mouth/teeth, but those can't be used to wield things unless you messed with the raws.
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Saiko Kila

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 04:48:06 am »

I hacked the hydra until finally one of my hits tore one of the leg's muscle and bruised the bone bringing it down.This slowed it to a literal crawl, and so I did not need the tree anymore.The beast was bleeding large amounts of blood and was now pale.I walked around it as it tried to get to me.With the large blood loss it did not take long for the hydra to bleed out.When I next fight against a hydra I will definitely be more careful.

What kind of weapon was it? A great axe? Iron? "Pale" means it has half of blood lost, or more, so even hacking an leg off such a big opponent wouldn't cause that much loss (because each tick blood loss from every wound is lowered till it stops, and one body part has limited amount of veins). I suppose it had many, many cuts to different body parts, and also they were deep wounds initially.

I'm interested in weapons which can cause that much blood loss, and comparison between them, that's why I'm asking. I think that great axe would be my top choice in this regard for now, but looking for alternatives.

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erlz

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2018, 02:08:56 pm »

I hacked the hydra until finally one of my hits tore one of the leg's muscle and bruised the bone bringing it down.This slowed it to a literal crawl, and so I did not need the tree anymore.The beast was bleeding large amounts of blood and was now pale.I walked around it as it tried to get to me.With the large blood loss it did not take long for the hydra to bleed out.When I next fight against a hydra I will definitely be more careful.

What kind of weapon was it? A great axe? Iron? "Pale" means it has half of blood lost, or more, so even hacking an leg off such a big opponent wouldn't cause that much loss (because each tick blood loss from every wound is lowered till it stops, and one body part has limited amount of veins). I suppose it had many, many cuts to different body parts, and also they were deep wounds initially.

I'm interested in weapons which can cause that much blood loss, and comparison between them, that's why I'm asking. I think that great axe would be my top choice in this regard for now, but looking for alternatives.


It was a bronze battle axe.I think the hydra at that moment was not pale but faint so that is a mistake on my part.I would have preferred a great axe but could not find one.Yes, I had severed several arteries on different necks and heads with some on the legs too.
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Saiko Kila

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2018, 02:38:20 pm »

What kind of weapon was it? A great axe? Iron? "Pale" means it has half of blood lost, or more, so even hacking an leg off such a big opponent wouldn't cause that much loss (because each tick blood loss from every wound is lowered till it stops, and one body part has limited amount of veins). I suppose it had many, many cuts to different body parts, and also they were deep wounds initially.

I'm interested in weapons which can cause that much blood loss, and comparison between them, that's why I'm asking. I think that great axe would be my top choice in this regard for now, but looking for alternatives.


It was a bronze battle axe.I think the hydra at that moment was not pale but faint so that is a mistake on my part.I would have preferred a great axe but could not find one.Yes, I had severed several arteries on different necks and heads with some on the legs too.

Bronze battleaxe, so not as big as I thought. Haven't had a hydra in a long time, but other big critters are kind of pain to kill by bleeding, unless with a big weapon, they stop bleeding so fast. Also my mistake with description - pale would mean less than 25%, faint is less than 50%, so even faint is very good for a big enemy, and a sign that bleeding works on it.
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peasant cretin

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2018, 07:40:05 pm »

As far as I understand, misses are not actually wildly inaccurate swings at the target right in front of the attacker, but rather a result of a successful defensive roll. There was an explanation on this subject somewhere: with each attack, the game compares the offensive roll of an attacker (based on weapon skill) and the defensive roll of a target (based on dodge skill); the blocking and parrying rolls also come into play there somewhere, but appear to be not as important or effective as the dodging roll. So, the misses are most likely considered "dodging on the same tile", thus, exhausting the target.

Dodging away from the opponent(s) is probably the best defense when it comes to multiple attacks being aimed at the player, because you can avoid them all at once for the cost of a single action. As is illustrated by your story, indeed.

Bit of a repost, with more detail. In terms of melee or ranged (as I somewhat understand it), the game's combat decision tree looks a good deal like this:

+ Attacker rolls to hit (succeed or fail).
++ If attacker roll to hit fails, then combat message is attacker misses.
+++ If attacker roll to hit succeeds, then defender rolls to dodge/block/parry (succeed or fail).
++++ If defender roll succeeds, then combat message is defender jumps/rolls away (dodge message), attack is blocked (shield deployed), or attack is parried (only against weapon users).
+++++ If defender roll fails, then combat message is defender is hit/grabbed.


*Attacker roll to hit is determined mainly by attacker (weapon/natural) skill level versus defender dodger skill level. Attacks where the attacker is positioned outside the red of the defender's vision arc (either yellow, or no color) are registered as attacks from behind. Any attack from behind countermands defender dodger in determining attacker roll to hit. There are likely a few other factors, but what's mentioned are the most significant.

To proof this for yourself, I'd suggest running Carp 1 versus Dwarf 1 in the Arena. NPC AI controls Carp 1, you control Dwarf 1. Water versus Land is to keep both of you at 1.000 movement speed (carp swim/dwarf walk), and to remove charge attacks that would result in stun's 50% penalty. Any test should hopefully filter for noise.

So, here's the setup to see to hit failure and maybe dodge success messages:
- Drop 1 z-level down in waterway.
- Put no skill vanilla carp on water tile adjacent to land tile.
- Surround with 5 trees to restrict carp movement to 1 tile.
- Add dwarf with grandmaster dodger. For this setup, we want the highest dodger to maximize killing roll to hit.
- Provoke carp to attack.
- Press (.) period key to receive the 1 of 2 possible combat messages: roll to hit failure message (Carp 1 misses you!), or on the off chance Carp 1's roll to hit succeeds, your roll to dodge success message (Carp 1 attacks you, but You jump away!).


You can muck around with other variables, like adding shield user & changing combat prefs to stand ground/stand ground to see potential block success messages, but for the most part the grandmaster dodger skill will produce the roll to hit failure message.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 07:09:14 pm by peasant cretin »
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peasant cretin

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Re: Fighting hydras is tiring.
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2018, 08:05:30 pm »

I hacked the hydra until finally one of my hits tore one of the leg's muscle and bruised the bone bringing it down.This slowed it to a literal crawl, and so I did not need the tree anymore.The beast was bleeding large amounts of blood and was now pale.I walked around it as it tried to get to me.With the large blood loss it did not take long for the hydra to bleed out.When I next fight against a hydra I will definitely be more careful.

What kind of weapon was it? A great axe? Iron? "Pale" means it has half of blood lost, or more, so even hacking an leg off such a big opponent wouldn't cause that much loss (because each tick blood loss from every wound is lowered till it stops, and one body part has limited amount of veins). I suppose it had many, many cuts to different body parts, and also they were deep wounds initially.

I'm interested in weapons which can cause that much blood loss, and comparison between them, that's why I'm asking. I think that great axe would be my top choice in this regard for now, but looking for alternatives.


It was a bronze battle axe.I think the hydra at that moment was not pale but faint so that is a mistake on my part.I would have preferred a great axe but could not find one.Yes, I had severed several arteries on different necks and heads with some on the legs too.

A gamey thing to do versus any critter that's a breather is to employ sidedness & target the upper body to get suffocation by damaging both lungs. Blunt attacks generally won't get stuck unless it's the umpteenth time. So if you had say a silver blunt weapon in each hand, you'd use right hand on upper body to tilt the damage result for left lung, and vice versa. If you're Kisat Dur-ing, just punch/kick to get that result.

You do need the defense to last until it does suffocate. Hydra's are level 6 skill stat, so maybe you'd want to be @dodger lvl 10. You kinda want to see them as say 7 night trolls stuck into 1 tile. I mean, titans are level 6s, but they tend to be so slow that they don't bear comparison to speedy lvl 6s.