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Author Topic: First official expansion pack: DF the secrets of technology and knowledge  (Read 931 times)

compsognathus

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I mean "when the game is over"....
I wrote this for those who like to see more technology in this game, but I think it is balanced in order to allow those who do not like technology to play in the period where it does not exist.

The concept is simple: new technologies, knowledge and secrets to discover but which can disappear. I will try to explain with the examples. The ancient world is full of wisdom gone lost.

New technologies could be:

“Common”: technologies / knowledge that will hardly disappear if discovered (example hospital, sailing ships and more )  Ingenious mood: one every hundred years (or fifty) worldwide. This technology/knowledge is shared without difficulty.


“Uncommon” technology/Knowledge that can easily disappear  (cause very long learning and construction times) Example (steam engine, steam boat,  steam ship, and more)  Ingenious Mood: one every five hundred years or never (in a game world) worldwide. This technology/knowledge is only shared with allies. Enemies and neutrals will try to steal it (corruption or theft of projects, new “quest” for adventure mode or missions for dwarf Fortress mode) These technology/knowledge do not occur before the year 500. Usually need a double mood ingenious: one common (only the artefact/invention) and one uncommon. I will write artefact to simplify, but it should be called "invention"


“Rare” technology/Knowledge that hardly appears (cause very long learning and construction times and related events, multiple artefacts and Ingenious moods, rare or abandoned resources, I will give an example) ingenious mood: one every thousand years or never. this technology/knowledge can cause splitting from one's own civilization because of discovery’s great power.
It may not be shared with the rest of his civilization, causing splitting. Nobody wants to share it. They want to keep secrets and conquer or create hegemony. Everyone will want to steal projects. it can trigger wars
these technology/knowledge do not occur before the year 1000


After the year one thousand the times of the moods can be halved
After two thousand years the times of the moods can be reduced by a third


Common technology/knowledge

example with the hospital:  A dwarf (or human who studies in your fortress o in other city ) enter strange moods only if he can access the library full of books of various knowledge and they are suitable for studying and very intelligent (ingenious mood or wise mood ) and he begins to study the corpses and dissects them for a long time, one or two years. The stress score for having seen a dead body will be canceled by the double or triple satisfaction score for having performed the autopsies and researches on the corpses.
Finally he writes a book artefact “Surgery by LeonarDwarf da Vinci”. Now the fortress can build the hospital but not forever, if LeonarDwarf dies the knowledge is lost. We must wait for a scholar (human or dwarf) to understand the manuscript (2 or 3 years). LeonarDwarf, when he is alive, can learn the surgery to suitable students to spread the knowledge in your civilization, your fortress, or in the allied ones.

If the manuscript is destroyed, stolen or burned and all the wise die by siege or monsters, the knowledge is lost.
You have to wait for a new ingenious in other fortresses or human cities (or again in your fortress but it will be very unlikely) and send a really intelligent dwarf to learn the surgery again.
 

It would be nice to start without a hospital because it's too simple: there should be some dwarves with new skills that they cure with propolis, alcohol, and herbs, a “Galen” Dwarf, or humans attracted by Fortress’s study room or elves wandering in the tavern, these doctors going to the sick person's private room, but the treatments have a low success rate. The true figure of the ancient doctor, and this is much more fantasy than the hospital
The dwarves are suitable for treating with alcohol, humans with propolis, and elves with herbs.
But they can learn all the medicines by following them and studying them.
[This solves the question of tea (herbal teas). The infusion are used to treat as in antiquity]

I had read a post of suggestions that describes how to learn new skills for dwarves, but I do not find it now

In fact it is too simple to activate a new ability to the dwarves
It is really too simple to activate labor with a button…
A dwarf to learn a new skill must do apprenticeship or study.
Follow who has knowledge or skills, for several months. one could request a teacher from another fortress or allied human city or send the dwarves from the masters outside the fortress.


I will continue with a simple and brief examples with legends logs:

Year 50:  the fortress A belonging to civilization X [your fortress] discovered the secret of surgery and was written the book by “LeonarDwarf da Vinci” (book artefact) [now you can build the hospital].

Year 52: the fortress B belonging to civilization X has learned the surgery knowledge  [dwarves or humans have come to your fortress to learn surgery.

Year 60: The Human City F belonging to civilization Z has learned the secret of surgery knowledge[
a scholar went to teach in the human city]

Year 65: Civilization Z has lost the secret of surgery knowledge [for example all the wise men have been killed by a secret guild that does not accept new technologies, they steal all artifacts (book’s copies), destroying or hiding them for future purposes, new missions for adventure mode]( now they can not build hospitals)

Year 70: the artefact belonging to civilization X "book about surgery written by LeonarDwarf da Vinci" was stolen by the “G” civilization (ok but, we have Leonardo and his students in our fortress )

Year 72: the artefact belonging to civilization “G” “book about surgery” was destroyed by fire (in a war siege) (but ok, they were goblins and could not read the dwarf language )

Year 73: the fortress A belonging to civilization X [your fortress] was destroyed by the goblin army [and LeonarDwen and and all his students are dead]

Year 73: the fortress B belonging to civilization X  was destroyed by a Titan. Surgery knowledge has disappeared from the world.
[all the wise are dead, hospitals can not be built, you have to wait for a new discovery, a new study.  in peacetime, knowledge would spread easily and would not disappear]
Year 150: The Human City “T” belonging to civilization “O” discovered the secret of surgery and was written the book about Surgery (book artifact) [now you can send your most intelligent and predisposed dwarves to study in the human city to learn the surgery]

ELSE rediscovery alternatives

Year 150: a page fragment of surgery book has been found by the Dwarf Jones Indiana [
mission in the goblin's lair, on Fortress mode or adventure mode].
The fragment is exhibited in the fortress museum (o human city)
Year 153: The learned Human Li Shizhen begins to study the page fragment (a human doctor visiting the fortress
very intelligent)
Year 159: The learned Human Li Shizhen discoveres the surgery secret.

[this time, in quiet times, the knowledge will spread throughout the human and dwarven world, only a world cataclysm will succeed in erasing it]


Insert extremely rare global catastrophic events that end all current knowledge.
Those who hate technologies like steam engines can go back to playing after the event or play before it is discovered (if it is discovered)
After a catastrophic world event there could be many secrets to be discovered in the world: wrecks, fragments of books or projects, ingenious mood artefacts lost, scholars who disappeared but survived and now hidden in shelters in the mountains waiting for the end of the catastrophe in progress or already finished ... and more.


I will make an example of “uncommon” technology/knowledge

“Steam Engine”

Legends logs ( not detailed, look at the years)

Year 400: civilization X builds a prototype “steam engine”
[useless artefact for now that increases the level of the fortress \ city created with
ingenious mood “common”must be exhibited at the museum or study hall, in human cities in universities, scholars could write manuals on this artefact, to save from loss ]
Year 680: civilization Y (allies with civilization X) writes the “project about
 the construction of steamboat” [if the artefact will be exposed in museums or study room, allied peoples’ learned will come to see the artefact to study it] Artifact by ingenious mood “uncommon” [it could be a steam train. Why not? imagine a fortress/mine with the king's order to extract all the metal to connect two fortresses.
built with dozens of years of work, the only train in the world that ends up destroyed by an iron titan?  But ok..
native outlaws would still have ransacked all its goods along the tracks, you had to patrol it with the army ]
Year 683: civilization Y  begin the construction of the first steamboat, the wise dwarf directs construction work all the time, right now he can’t teach technology
Year 685:  civilization Y builds the first steamboat [observe the construction time well… 2 years]
Year 685:  the launch of the steamboat succeeded  [the first time a new technology is used must be tested,
if the test fails you have to modify the project, waste more time, and hope to recover the ship… disassemble and modify it…( months of work) otherwise we must rebuild it ]
Year 685: steamboat is sunk by a sea monster
Year 687:  civilization Y builds the second steamboat
Year 687: villains in the fortress steal and secretly sell the steam engine artefact to an evil necromancer who wanted to study it. [the necromancer thought he could do something with the object, like a new magic]
Year 687-800 technology is widespread in the x and y civilizations and many ships have been built
Year 801-810 a great war ravages civilization x and y and finally there is only a steamboat and one educated engineer
Year 810: the engineer dwarf dies before he can teach a student. We still have the ship, as soon as it re-enters the port it must be stopped, disassembled and studied by an intelligent dwarf suitable for knowledge. This not to lose the knowledge. But there is no one capable of doing it for now.
We can call scholars willing to study from other fortresses of our civilization or from allied cities.
Year 810: the ship does not return home because it is sunk by the pirates hired by enemy king who had no fleet. Corsairs
Year 810: steam technology is lost    [a ship has been stolen by its enemies but they have not yet managed to understand the technology’ secret. Maybe in fifty years they will succeed or maybe and never]


the steps to recover it:
1 find the necromancer and resume the artefact, (or retrieve a manual that talks about it,or possibility to consult it in other neutral or allied peoples )
2 all the dwarf workers who contributed to the construction can help the new expert in charge with their testimonies of what they have built
3 dwarf or human very intelligent and suitable to the study

1+3 = hope for a new mood in the next 500 years in your fortress

1+2=5% possibility of success in any attempt to rebuild the ship+  0.1% for each worker who participated in the first construction, not more than 20%

1+2+3=35% possibility of success in any attempt to rebuild the ship+0.1%

4 find a wreck and see it (need of magic or new technology "diving suit" mood ingenious common)

3+4=10% possibility of success in any attempt to rebuild the ship + 5% for each dive
1+2+3+4= 50% possibility of success in any attempt to rebuild the ship +5% +0.1%
1+3+4=20% possibility of success in any attempt to rebuild the ship +5%+0.1%

5 look directly at a steamboat in the harbor
1+2+3+4+5=100%
2+3+4+5=90%
5+3=45%

6 wait for a new mood in the next 500 years hoping it is steam engine

Being able to rebuild a working ship is equivalent to recovering knowledge (project and manual artefact)





 …and a “rare” technology/knowledge… DF is a “high/hard fantasy” simulator game or a austere historical simulator?


I will give an example with flying ships…
stages to build a wood flying ship:
1 civilization x  must have knowledge of sailing ships
2 civilization x (or allies or neutrals) must discover / create a book about noble gases and expose it to the library (wise mood uncommon) if the book is an allied or neutral civilization, you need a scholar who can do it
3 civilization x (or allies or neutrals) must write a book about the strength of local winds and expose it to the library (wise mood common) if the book is an allied or neutral civilization, you need a scholar who can do it
4 civilization x must create a flying ship project (wise mood rare)
5 civilization x must find the rare resources to build. In this case a light wood forest (magic forest? magical forest protected by uncivilized natives or monsters….[new career of rich trader hiring a large group of mercenaries]) it may not have been generated brought into that world
6 test the project, 10%+0.1% for every wise director's intelligence point  of success with every attempt (a magician could increase the chances of success with magical power but this would create dependence on the project from magic and need all time a wizard inside the ship, but I do not know the magic in df)
7 modify the project with each failed attempt
8 finished
9 now a wizard could make it quicker once it's over.

This process could take centuries, various scholars, dangerous journeys to study and discovery, and never end. This is an epic undertaking in difficult survival but whoever succeeds can attempt the hegemony of the world, inciting fear and death. (bombardment of rocks against fortresses and cities or launched by catapults against dragons or flying monsters)
The civilization that knows this technology of could divide after having built so many ship and destroy each other for the hegemony of the world




"Storm Master" flying ship project. Amiga Commodore.



Battles in the wind.


I add that this technology system, where everything can disappear if not maintained, serves to keep alive the "Survival" game's aspect. (In addition to keeping alive the idea of ​​an Ancient World simulator)
I saw survival games that, after some play's time, clearly lost this aspect "survival".
Probably all current games "survival" have this flaw.

It would also serve a new command in the legend mode:
Go ahead with time without playing adventure or fortress, simply observing the events that happen, and start a new fortress or adventure after 200 years (for example) after your last death. This is to choose the time in which to play with or without relevant technologies.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 01:28:36 pm by compsognathus »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: First official expansion pack: DF the secrets of technology and knowledge
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2018, 05:54:01 pm »

30 years from now as we slowly approach 0.7 and rumours on the forum suggest that the next release will take the game into beta, modding support will already be so good you'll be able to do all this yourself and let Toady enjoy his dotage in peace.

(And re-reading, mostly it's what's already planned for technology anyhow, so wouldn't require much modding at all).
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 05:59:39 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: First official expansion pack: DF the secrets of technology and knowledge
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2018, 07:20:13 pm »

Just in case you were wondering, my theropod-named friend, you can find quite a few of the many features Toady has planned for the game over the long-term here: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html. ;)
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: First official expansion pack: DF the secrets of technology and knowledge
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2018, 10:01:04 pm »

Just in case you were wondering, my theropod-named friend, you can find quite a few of the many features Toady has planned for the game over the long-term here: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html. ;)
Although, to be fair, the tech system isn't really mentioned in any detail there. It's buried in a combination of devblog and fotf replies. And perhaps some videos too.
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compsognathus

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Re: First official expansion pack: DF the secrets of technology and knowledge
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2018, 05:19:20 am »

Yes I had already read but I did not find large and intrusive technologies that can appear and disappear. 
I only read about features that will be inserted right away in the game.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 05:22:29 am by compsognathus »
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: First official expansion pack: DF the secrets of technology and knowledge
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2018, 11:56:53 am »

Not all of them will be inserted right away. Yes, most of them are shorter-term plans but some of the content is probably still a good 5-10 years off at least (not counting everything in the ordered list, that stuff is just around the corner). Some stuff on technology is in there, you just have to dig for it. It's not that extensive but most of DF's features are partially intended as templates for mods anyway, so you should have no trouble adding the technology you want once we have something decent to base it off.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 12:02:47 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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Putnam

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Re: First official expansion pack: DF the secrets of technology and knowledge
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2018, 07:02:17 am »

Yes I had already read but I did not find large and intrusive technologies that can appear and disappear. 
I only read about features that will be inserted right away in the game.
Nah, it's on the wiki

compsognathus

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Re: First official expansion pack: DF the secrets of technology and knowledge
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2018, 08:06:55 am »

Well, I had not read this. So I might have written a good suggestion.


I add that this technology system, where everything can disappear if not maintained, serves to keep alive the "Survival" game's aspect. (In addition to keeping alive the idea of ​​an Ancient World simulator)
I saw survival games that, after some play's time, clearly lost this aspect "survival".
Probably all current games "survival" have this flaw.

It would also serve a new command in the legend mode:
Go ahead with time without playing adventure or fortress, simply observing the events that happen, and start a new fortress or adventure after 200 years (for example) after your last death. This is to choose the time in which to play with or without relevant technologies.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 07:32:58 pm by compsognathus »
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