Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)  (Read 4853 times)

anthony62490

  • Bay Watcher
  • Schlagen Sie auf die Erde!
    • View Profile
Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« on: January 03, 2019, 07:16:23 pm »
As part of a larger project, I went through all of the names in a large newly-generated world and tallied up the origins and meanings of all of them. The results were pretty eye-opening for me.

RESEARCH :  A survey of 3829 dwarves in a newly-generated world yielded a pool of 249 unique names.
Out of 3829 generated dwarves, 89 had names of a non-dwarven origin
Of these, 83 were Human 5 were Goblin and 0 were Elven. 1 was unclear and has been removed from the percentages.

    Dwarven names:  (97.7%)
Foreign names:      (2.32%)
    Human names:    (2.16%)
    Goblin names:   (0.13%)
    Elf names:      (0.0 %)

FOREIGN NAMES:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

DWARVEN NAMES
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here are some interesting things I have gleaned from this information. I mean, it's interesting if you're into that sort of thing.
  • The DF Wiki currently states that "The first name typically is a single word of the civilization's language." Based on this information, I was unable to find even a single instance of a dwarf with a foreign name who wasn't born in a foreign land.
  • A dwarf who is kidnapped by goblins retains their dwarven name, but any children of that dwarf will be given goblin names
  • The DF Wiki currently states that the SELECT_SYMBOL token "Causes the entity to more often use these symbols in the particular SYM set". So I expected to see a vast majority of dwarves with names taken from the ARTIFICE and EARTH pools. Instead, I couldn't find a single dwarf (born in a dwarven civilization) that had been given a name outside the ARTIFICE and EARTH pools.

Please note that this information only comes from one newly generated, mid-aged world. And even then, only the dwarves. If anyone's interested, I'm sure I could whip up something that can analyze all races from several worlds without so much work involved.

Stats generated using DF 0.44.12-r04
and collected with LegendsBrowser 1.17.1
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 04:54:45 pm by anthony62490 »
Logged

scourge728

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2019, 09:15:44 pm »
interesting
Logged

delphonso

  • Bay Watcher
  • menaces with spikes of pine
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2019, 10:33:14 pm »
Zero elven names. Good.

This is very interesting, thanks for the hard work, anthony.
Logged

Imic

  • Bay Watcher
  • Still sad
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2019, 04:42:53 am »
I found that to be very interesting. I qould have excpected Dwarves to name their children after warlike tags, but I suppose it makes sense for them to prefer crafting.
Logged
Quote from: Haspen on March 26, 2018, 10:53:06 am
Imic's no longer allowed to vote.
Quote from: smyttysmyth
Well aren't you cheery
Quote cabinet
Regrets every choice he made and makes, including writing this here.

Brightgalrs

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2019, 02:31:11 pm »
So from this we can guess that Dwarf names come from the ARTIFICE and EARTH SYMBOL-sets which are defined in language_SYM.txt. That's 231 possible names. It's odd that you only caught 165* of them.

I conjecture that CULL_SYMBOL has something to do with it. A quick search turns up Bin ("Osed") as being in ARTIFICE, but not in your list there. Bin is also in the DOMESTIC set, so maybe that's getting filtered out and leaving us with 165.

Alright, with some investigation I've come up with:

ARTIFICE + EARTH - DOMESTIC - FLOWERY - NEGATOR - NEGATIVE - UGLY - EVIL = 175 Dwarf Names

Then the ones with no noun entries (Gild, Shoot, Wind [a clock]) are removed.

However, this leaves Granite, Tin, Copper, Bronze, Brass, Cobalt, and Ochre as missing (from your list). Dwarfs don't like to name their children after lesser metals/minerals, even with the above rules?

Oh, also you list "idîd" which should just be "id".
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 04:27:41 pm by Brightgalrs »
Logged

anthony62490

  • Bay Watcher
  • Schlagen Sie auf die Erde!
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2019, 03:45:45 pm »
No, "Onget" IS a valid name. It's on the list. The reason that Sienna doesn't show up is that it's also in the FLOWERY pool. This is the reason that you'll never find a Dwarf named "Amethyst", "Aquamarine", or "Umber". All are EARTH words, but they are also FLOWERY, which dwarves are forbidden from using.

My big revelation from here is that no one ever deviates from these rules like the wiki implies. Like every once in a while, you'd find a dwarf with a name from the WEALTH pool, but not EARTH or ARTIFICE. But that wasn't the case.

Quote from: Brightgalrs on January 10, 2019, 02:31:11 pm
That's 231 possible names. It's odd that you only caught 160 of them.
I caught 165. If I am correct, there should be 175 valid Dwarven names (earth + artifice - (domestic, subordinate, evil, flowery, negative, ugly, negator)) provided they were born in a dwarf civilization. So I guess this world skipped over a few names. The issue is that several COLOR words are also found in the FLOWERY pool.

I ran a quick script that added up all EARTH and ARTIFICE names and the filtered out all the forbidden tags, and I came up with this list. It's 175 names long. I haven't tested it against an actual generated world, but it all LOOKS pretty accurate to me.

ALL VALID DWARVEN NAMES
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 04:52:40 pm by anthony62490 »
Logged

Brightgalrs

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2019, 04:48:34 pm »
I think we've both been doing the exact same thing for the last hour or so. Lol. My post has since been updated.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 04:50:12 pm by Brightgalrs »
Logged

anthony62490

  • Bay Watcher
  • Schlagen Sie auf die Erde!
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2019, 04:52:54 pm »
I compared the list of names I was generated to the list of valid names, and I didn't find many discrepancies. The names that my world failed to generate were:
Akrul, Gusil, Keskal, Kilrud, Konos, Letmos, Lolok, Nokim, Oltar, and Oslan

Also, I found that "Idîd" is not even a Dwarven word (or a word in any other language), so I'm unsure how it managed to not only get into my list of names, but also get identified as EARTH, NATURE, PRIMITIVE. I'm pretty sure this was the name "Id" repeated, because the world DID generate Ids that were not counted properly (there were 29). The list has been edited to match this.

So I took a look at these names to see why they never showed up, and I came up with the following:

Akrul - Tin - EARTH
Gusil - Copper - EARTH COLOR
Keskal - Shoot - ARTIFICE VIOLENT (invalid as a first name)
Kilrud - Bronze - EARTH COLOR
Konos - Brass - ARTIFICE COLOR
Letmos - Cobalt - EARTH COLOR
Lolok - Granite - EARTH
Nokim - Ochre - EARTH COLOR
Oltar - Gild - ARTIFICE WEALTH (invalid as a first name)
Oslan - Wind (like a clock) - ARTIFICE (invalid as a first name)

Based on this, it does LOOK like many of the COLOR words are not being chosen, but since Onget DID make it into the list of generated names, I think it's more likely that this is a coincidence. Additionally, I'm positive that I've seen dwarves named Kilrud and Letmos before.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 05:04:31 pm by anthony62490 »
Logged

anthony62490

  • Bay Watcher
  • Schlagen Sie auf die Erde!
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2019, 04:57:43 pm »
Ha! We have been doing the exact same thing. Now my numbers are all off though. I need to fully automate this. Doing it by hand is too error-prone.

EDIT: Huh. That is strange. Almost all of the missing names are of minerals. But I KNOW I've seen dwarves named Kilrud before. Hold on, I'm gonna generate a huge world and have a poke around. This feels like a coincidence, but I want to double check. I'm going to make a large world with a very long history just to maximize the number of entities that get generated. This could take a while, so I'll check back in a few hours.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 05:10:51 pm by anthony62490 »
Logged

Brightgalrs

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2019, 11:29:58 am »
Oh I think I've figured it out. As I said before, the words need to have a Noun entry (invalidates Shoot, Ochre, Gild, Wind) but they also need the [THE_NOUN_SING] tag, which Tin, Copper, Bronze, Brass, Cobalt, and Granite do not. All of this is defined in language_words.txt.
Logged

GPeter

  • Bay Watcher
  • Adequate forum poster.
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2019, 11:34:02 am »
My good man, I must give my congratulation to you for such hard work! It must have been a huge pain in the ass to do this!
Logged
Quote from: syvarris on November 08, 2017, 02:23:44 pm
Yeah, there's plenty of information out there, but you don't need that information to form an opinion and then defend it to the death.
Quote from: Il Palazzo on December 26, 2018, 09:38:33 am
Hey, don't be like that. Your life never had any meaning in the first place!

FantasticDorf

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2019, 12:17:02 pm »
This is nice, this made me a bit more invested to look into how exactly they worked.

When i ran some modded goblin fortresses that usually used the evil symbol on by default, they kept returning to errorlog that they were 'impoverished' of word choices when i created new location areas, and suitably didn't really generate any special names unless i typed them in myself, which to that point i enjoy the evil naming scheme anyway with my ngokang (curse) and names like this being very common but otherwise just slightly amusing.

Do the symbols follow their sphere counter parts? War aren't connected by spheres but are closely related anyway if not directly in the sheet, you can probably link Domestic to any number of them unless the rest are unused or literally can be called up individually like [SYMBOL:LIGHT], but i've not tried this so im not sure.

Therefore it might be easier to assign more sub-symbol preferences for more variety, having all elves adopt food for names like 'garlic', though dwarves tend to talk about food a lot in regards to tavern names in reference to syrups.
Logged

Brightgalrs

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2019, 12:43:49 pm »
Oh hey entity_default.txt gives the ARTIFICE + EARTH - DOMESTIC - FLOWERY - NEGATOR - NEGATIVE - UGLY - EVIL equation for dwarves:
Quote
[SELECT_SYMBOL:REMAINING:ARTIFICE]
[SELECT_SYMBOL:REMAINING:EARTH]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:DOMESTIC]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:SUBORDINATE]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:EVIL]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:FLOWERY]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:NEGATIVE]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:UGLY]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:NEGATOR]

And for Elves:
Quote
[SELECT_SYMBOL:REMAINING:NATURE]
[SELECT_SYMBOL:REMAINING:FLOWERY]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:DOMESTIC]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:SUBORDINATE]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:EVIL]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:NEGATIVE]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:UGLY]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:NEGATOR]

Goblins:
Quote
[SELECT_SYMBOL:REMAINING:EVIL]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:DOMESTIC]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:FLOWERY]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:HOLY]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:PEACE]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:NEGATOR]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:GOOD]

Humans don't have [SELECT_SYMBOL:REMAINING:XXX].
But they do have CULL_SYMBOL:
Quote
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:SUBORDINATE]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:EVIL]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:NEGATIVE]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:UGLY]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:NEGATOR]
Maybe all words (with [THE_NOUN_SING]) that are not in the above symbol sets are valid names?

Kobolds don't have SELECT_SYMBOL:REMAINING either, but they have the [UTTERANCES] tag, which results in randomized names that don't correspond to English words. So it makes sense.
Logged

FantasticDorf

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2019, 01:48:56 pm »
This'll be of use, the wiki has been a useful resource as always.

Select Symbol - Out of the list on language SYM in folder
Sub-Select Symbol - Adjective use, maybe of interest

Though i think this isn't hardcoded, if you can find the relevant names, [SELECT_SYMBOL:ALL REMAINING:*SYMBOL*] can be overidden, so perhaps you could write your own custom [SYMBOL:METAL] which shouldn't conflict normally with [SYMBOL:WEALTH] unless its culled.

Quote
SYMBOL METAL
S_WORD:ALUMINUM //no spoken word are striked through, most of these are natural ores though
S_WORD:BISMUTH
S_WORD:COPPER
S_WORD:GOLD
S_WORD:IRON
S_WORD:LEAD
S_WORD:NICKEL
S_WORD:PLATINUM
S_WORD:SILVER
S_WORD:TIN
S_WORD:BRONZE
S_WORD:STEEL // alloy with a name like bronze
S_WORD:PIG_IRON //this one is tricky, might need its own specially made subselect-symbol for alloys if that works. "thuveg datan" in dwarvish, other words like rose gold are contrarian to flowery culling
S_WORD:ZINC
S_WORD:BAR // some overlap here
S_WORD:FURNACE
S_WORD:ANVIL
S_WORD:RUST
S_WORD:FORGE only labouring exists as a phrase of this, as a verb or noun

Taverns are hardcoded as far as i can see into food related names.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 01:55:05 pm by FantasticDorf »
Logged

anthony62490

  • Bay Watcher
  • Schlagen Sie auf die Erde!
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2019, 07:43:17 pm »
Hey. Me again. This may be only of academic interest, but the name "Oggez Rashas" (of Bronzemurdered fame) is not naturally attainable as far as I can tell. "Oggez" is a valid first name (meaning "The Hole" in Dwarven), but Rashas is not a word in any language as far as I can tell. Maybe it was different in 0.31, but I cant find evidence of it. The closest matches I could find are "Náshas" (Lilacs, which would be culled via Dwarven naming rules against FLOWERY names) and "Sashas" (Rushing, which is oddly not included in any language_SYM pool).
So I'm  not actually sure what Oggez Rashas's name means beyond "The Hole of ____"
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
« previous next »