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Author Topic: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!  (Read 22807 times)

Teneb

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Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« on: February 05, 2019, 04:55:34 pm »


Now that the game is two months from release (and we have a proper release date: 25th of April), I feel like it's time for there to be a thread

Here's a link to the dev diary archives since there's absolutely no way I am going to link each individually (only maybe future ones).

Spoiler: And always remember (click to show/hide)
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 08:41:36 pm »

i mean, maybe

kinda down on paradox these days with how eu4 has been looking, and certainly not happy about on what theyre doing with stellaris

holy fury has been a bright spot but only because of how long its taken them to fix obvious things, plus the good silly things

imperator, if it becomes good, won't be good until 2021 at the earliest
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Wiles

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 07:06:48 am »

imperator, if it becomes good, won't be good until 2021 at the earliest

I don't really agree that it is the case that Paradox games are bad on release. They are definitely better later (except maybe stellaris) and I wouldn't go back to playing vanilla, but they aren't bad. I had a great time with CKII, EU4 and Stellaris on release.
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Teneb

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 07:54:17 am »

imperator, if it becomes good, won't be good until 2021 at the earliest

I don't really agree that it is the case that Paradox games are bad on release. They are definitely better later (except maybe stellaris) and I wouldn't go back to playing vanilla, but they aren't bad. I had a great time with CKII, EU4 and Stellaris on release.
CK2 was probably the best Paradox release ever (from what I've heard, since I first played when LoR released). EU4 was damn competent too. Can't say much about HoI though, since I grabbed that one quite a while after release.
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 08:50:26 am »

I don't think you can say EU4 was really complete at release (mid 2013). Colonial nations didn't even exist until the first DLC, CoP. Province development and estates didn't exist until late 2015, and they're some of the most important elements of EU4 now. Was it good at release? I mean... it was ok. It wasn't really worth sinking a bunch of time into before the other features.

CK2... probably fine, as long as you didn't expect to ever play as anything other than Christian. Definitely their best release in the last few decades.

Not sure which was worse at release, HoI 4 or Stellaris. Both pretty bad.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 09:51:22 am »

Imo CK2 was great on release (for, as ZeroGravitas says, Christians) and got better, EU4 was trash on release although I've not tried it since release, I've heard it got better. Stellaris started bad and hasn't really got good yet. Following this line of degeneration of paradox titles we should probably expect this to start bad and somehow manage to get worse over time.

That said, I'll still be keeping a close eye on it, and hold out some hope. But I'm not buying until a few weeks after release at earliest.
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Ludorum Rex

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 10:55:43 am »

I think this is a bit of a passion project for Johan, and it seems like he also wants a revanche after the somewhat disappointing EU: Rome (at least I got the impression PDX themselves were somewhat unhappy with how that game turned out). That gives me quite a lot of hope that the foundations of the game will be solid.

It does build solidly on the core game design pillars of Paradox games, especially the use of various kinds of "nation mana" as the core resource enabling and limiting actions and development. The warfare, battles and military aspects are based on the usual model as well. The mix of character and nation-based gameplay is somewhat new, as is the pops model (even if it does show roots in Victoria and Stellaris), but nevertheless, I think if you like Paradox games in general, you will like this game, but if you don't like the way Paradox games play, you probably won't like this either.

A lot of the Paradox mechanics rely heavily on iteration to hit a sweet spot between micro-management and the good kind of busywork. Stellaris gave up on the tile model (wisely I think, as it was such a departure from their usual mechanics, that they'd need too much iteration to make it work) and there's historically been some issues making pop-based models work - there seems to be somewhat of a love-hate relationship with how they ended up on Vic1/Vic2/Stellaris. The character mechanics of CK2 have been a smash hit, so I'm very excited to see an attempt at integrating these into a non-CK game. Stellaris is sorely missing better character mechanics, and I think if Paradox manage to get a good balance between a pop-based economy and a character-based narrative in this game, it's very likely we'll see those systems ported to Stellaris.

Either way with how Stellaris is evolving and what we're seeing from Imperator gameplay - Paradox really seems to be converging the overall mechanics across their games. As someone who enjoys Paradox games, I think that's a great thing. The oft-heard accusations of their recent games having too much EU4 DNA is unreasonably harsh, but not entirely incorrect either, so I am glad to see further experiments with characters and pops. Stellaris did regress a bit much towards EU4 after the great purge of tiles.

My biggest worry is actually that they decided to include India, Scandinavia and all of the British Isles - that could result in performance issues and some odd campaign results. I'd much rather have seen those resource spent on polishing and refining the world closer to the mediterranean. But hey, perhaps I'll be positively surprised. I still think the inclusion of India and Western China in CK2 would have worked better as separate "grand campaigns" - or even games.
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 11:32:18 am »

The "passion project for Johan" is exactly what worries me.
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Retropunch

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2019, 04:58:25 pm »

I have to agree that Paradox releases seem to be getting worse overall - it's not that they're bad, it's just that the releases seem to get more and more unfocused and messy. CK2 made sense being about Christendom - it's Crusader Kings for a reason and that's fine. After that they got gradually less and less focused - Stellaris was a mess at launch and still doesn't know quite what it wants to be, EU4 didn't seem to have many good systems in place to start off with and HOI4 was pretty bland.

I think mostly I just dislike Paradox's model of releasing something that sort of works and isn't terrible, but will need years of iteration and paid for DLC before it actually becomes good. I don't have time (and few do with how much is on offer these days) to keep coming back to it every 4 months to check if it's finally become good enough to spend time on.

Basically, I'm hoping that this has a much tighter focus and doesn't require 10 DLCs and three years of patches to become enjoyable.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2019, 06:40:55 pm »

EU4 was trash on release although I've not tried it since release, I've heard it got better.
It got better, but only if you have a certain DLC. If not, it got worse, because some starts will end up getting spammed with crippling famine events that badly reduce province development and you have no way to manually boost it back.

Also the setting worries me. PDX has a hard time making non-war stuff engaging, and you're not going to see much in the way of large wars between large states in this era.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 06:49:11 pm by Flying Dice »
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Trolldefender99

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2019, 06:48:55 pm »

I dunno, personally I like EU4/CK2 keep being updated to this day. Its one reason I like MMOs, is constant updates. It isn't updated a few times with maybe a few expansions and then "abandoned" for the next game. Personally, if I really like a game I love it to keep being updated for years and years...again the only thing that makes MMOs playable for me is I know as long as its successful it'll be updated for potentially decades. That is also why I like Skyrim and similar games that are highly moddable, is content keeps being added to extend the life of the game despite bethesda "abandoning" them for the next game.

Seems though a lot of people don't seem to like the constant support a game gets. The one thing I can see, is...even on a good sale day, EU4 DLCs add up to be quite a lot if buying them all at once. But for me, I'd rather the game keep being updated than "abandoned" call of duty style with 100s (exaggeration) of EU games being made every 2 years.

And yeah, abandoned ends up in quotes cause I can see how a company sees a game finished and wants to move on. So it isn't really abandoned. Personally I don't like that, and I'd rather games do it MMO style and update for years or even decades. Which paradox does with most of their flagship titles, and that is what I personally prefer.

it does however mean I know Imperator is gonna be vastly better with DLC, so I won't buy at release. So there is that one downside to that model. But I still like a game updated for a long time than left to move on to the next flashy game.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 06:51:45 pm by Trolldefender99 »
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Criptfeind

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2019, 07:08:13 pm »

I don't think anyone has an issue with games that are continually supported over time. People have an issue that it's seemingly become increasingly the practice of paradox studios to not even try to make a good game, since they'll just eventually fix it with dlc. Which not only has an issue with you eventually end up having to pay hundreds of dollars if you want to play an actually good game, but the general deterioration in quality has lead to them eventually releasing games that are so bad that even with years of polish and dlcs they still are bad (looking at you stellaris). I don't think people would be complaining if the games started good and got better.
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Retropunch

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2019, 07:09:18 pm »

Seems though a lot of people don't seem to like the constant support a game gets.
...

it does however mean I know Imperator is gonna be vastly better with DLC, so I won't buy at release. So there is that one downside to that model. But I still like a game updated for a long time than left to move on to the next flashy game.

You've sort of answered your own question - it's because paradox launches games which tend to be bare bones and pretty much broken at the start (Stellaris in particular) and then make it up over years with DLC. Some of that is justified DLC, but a lot is basically paying for fixes as is the case with some of the EU4 stuff.

The worst thing is, they're rewarded for this model - it's better for business if they release a very bare bones game and then release DLC for people to buy to fill it out. Stellaris was at the point where there were pretty much 'DLC content here' banners in the UI.

I think there's a good type of constant support and a bad type which is just squeezing customers - Paradox is right on the line between the two in my opinion. I wish they'd release better games to start off with which were feature complete, and then use DLC for adding on extras, rather than using to fill stuff that should have been there from the start.
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Trolldefender99

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2019, 07:17:20 pm »

Yeah, that is one thing I didn't really go further on. But, Stellaris was rather disappointing at release and still isn't that great. I think they relied too much on DLC to make the game better.

Where as another issue with EU4, turning off all the DLC to see what its like for a brand new person without anything and its pretty terrible. In fact, its almost broken in many ways without DLC. But with DLC, EU4 is probably my favorite strategy game. Almost 1000 hours of EU4. I would NOT enjoy it without any DLC though, its rather...well doesn't really work in many areas of the game.

It does prove its faults for sure. And paradox DOES seem to rely more on DLC for their newer games since EU4 instead of making a good game at release. Which is definitely a problem with them wanting to rely on DLC so much.

Stellaris was pretty barebones, and really needed more work. HoI4, while I personally didn't play it, my friend played it at release and wasn't too happy compared to HoI3. But I can't really say anything about that one from a personal experience.

I do like how they keep updating it, but I should have put more focus in the post above into the negative side of things which there definitely are issues with that model. Especially if they think they need to rely on it so much which makes a rather lackluster game release.

We'll see how Imperator turns out at release. Hopefully they put a lot of effort/work into it, instead of releasing it kinda barebones and relying so much on DLC.

Of course. There is always Imperium Universalis mod for EU4 :P
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scriver

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Re: Imperator: Rome - Paradox in Togas?!
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2019, 01:11:06 pm »

The best thing about this game is that there are two Lingon-tribes. TWO.

Let the sauce run red!


The mix of character and nation-based gameplay is somewhat new

*stares angrily in original Roman*
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Love, scriver~
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