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Author Topic: Maybe a Simple Economy & Property (maybe too simple)  (Read 537 times)

Miky2911

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Maybe a Simple Economy & Property (maybe too simple)
« on: February 06, 2019, 06:54:04 pm »

Guys i'm not and older player of DF but anyway i want so suggest this:
Economy: keep it simple as possible, individuals earn coins working and selling items to merchants (Es: Farmer grow plants and sell them to a merchant), merchants will sell this items at a higher price and run caravans, guards will have a payout each day from the Lord of the fortress/hamlet/ecc.

To work my idea is: The fortress/hamlet/ecc is property of the Noble Lord (also in fortress mode you should impersonate the Lord of the fortress) and so he will gain from tributes and/or taxes that each day a citizien must pay and with these money he will pay the army, mercenaries, and personal items (food etc.)

In adventure mode when you found a site you should be able to switch between fortress and adventure mode (i know is planned already) and when the site reach a certain requirement it will be an Hamlet/hillrock and after other requirements it will be a fortress/town

Debts: maybe is simpler to not introduce them but maybe after some time it could be just: you and others can go negative in balance when trading and the merchant will say to you to pay him before the  end of the month, if you dont The Justice system will flag you as a criminal

Money of organizations, churchs, mercenaries bands, bandits etc. are simply the coins of the leader which takes each day some money from other members
Money of the tavern are the money of the Tavern'keeper and go on that way for everything

Sorry for being a noob i'm healing myself (maybe too noob)

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thompson

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Re: Maybe a Simple Economy & Property (maybe too simple)
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2019, 07:45:05 pm »

No need to apologise. Toady has tried implementing something like that in the past, but it proved more difficult than expected to get working. An economy revamp has been flagged for the future, but could be a decade away.
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Maybe a Simple Economy & Property (maybe too simple)
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 08:12:50 pm »

There's reason for optimism, of course. For a while now Toady's been making gradual steps towards something resembling a basic economy, and you'll see from the recent devlogs that the upcoming release is no exception. But yeah, will probably be quite a while before it adds up to something we could unambiguously classify as a working economic structure.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 08:14:55 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Maybe a Simple Economy & Property (maybe too simple)
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2019, 08:50:12 am »

Guys i'm not and older player of DF but anyway i want so suggest this:
Economy: keep it simple as possible, individuals earn coins working and selling items to merchants (Es: Farmer grow plants and sell them to a merchant), merchants will sell this items at a higher price and run caravans, guards will have a payout each day from the Lord of the fortress/hamlet/ecc.

There is nothing simple about that. 

To work my idea is: The fortress/hamlet/ecc is property of the Noble Lord (also in fortress mode you should impersonate the Lord of the fortress) and so he will gain from tributes and/or taxes that each day a citizen must pay and with these money he will pay the army, mercenaries, and personal items (food etc.)

How was anyone stupid enough to allow a single individual to make the whole fortress his property?

Debts: maybe is simpler to not introduce them but maybe after some time it could be just: you and others can go negative in balance when trading and the merchant will say to you to pay him before the  end of the month, if you dont The Justice system will flag you as a criminal

What if we don't feel like playing along with this dystopia? 

Money of organizations, churchs, mercenaries bands, bandits etc. are simply the coins of the leader which takes each day some money from other members
Money of the tavern are the money of the Tavern'keeper and go on that way for everything

Sorry for being a noob i'm healing myself (maybe too noob)

There is a difference between an organization and it's leader. 
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therahedwig

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Re: Maybe a Simple Economy & Property (maybe too simple)
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2019, 09:24:45 am »

Be nice: they're new to DF and don't seem to be used to considering economic modeling being a quite broad and complicated field even when looking at it in simplified manners.

You don't have to be curt with people to make them question their earlier stance.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Maybe a Simple Economy & Property (maybe too simple)
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2019, 07:04:26 am »

Be nice: they're new to DF and don't seem to be used to considering economic modeling being a quite broad and complicated field even when looking at it in simplified manners.

You don't have to be curt with people to make them question their earlier stance.

Okay, I was not spoiling for a fight there, as ever.  There are three other points aside from the simplicity not being actually simple part.  They can be summarised as.

"How did it come about?"

"What about the player's choice?"

"How do we model the distinction between the property of an organisation and it's leader"
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Sarmatian123

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Re: Maybe a Simple Economy & Property (maybe too simple)
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2019, 04:19:41 pm »

In one of the old suggestions topic, I flagged up, that not all capitalist or feudal economies were made like socialism and liberalism from top-to-down structure. Most of them were down-to-top formed instead. Abstract translation into real time will prefer of course the simple top-to-bottom structure, but those easy translations never truly work. Still, building economy from bottom, piece by piece, should add gradually some realism into this in future coming economic system. The most exciting to see with this new economy development will be the player's sea ships in adventure mode. Yarr! :)
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Maybe a Simple Economy & Property (maybe too simple)
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2019, 07:18:06 am »

In one of the old suggestions topic, I flagged up, that not all capitalist or feudal economies were made like socialism and liberalism from top-to-down structure. Most of them were down-to-top formed instead. Abstract translation into real time will prefer of course the simple top-to-bottom structure, but those easy translations never truly work. Still, building economy from bottom, piece by piece, should add gradually some realism into this in future coming economic system. The most exciting to see with this new economy development will be the player's sea ships in adventure mode. Yarr! :)

True, but as previously discussed the feudal economies were not actually based upon the individual worker, more the individuals worker's entire household, which can expand or contract according to the economic situation.  It has never actually happened in history that the basic economic unit was truly the bottom, that is the individual worker rather than something bigger.  Granted given this is fantasy we don't have to follow history; the problem is that the history is the way it is for a reason.

That reason is risk.  Let us say we have a bunch of woodcrafters, the price of a woodcraft tends to be the cost of the goods needed to support an average woodcrafter, divided by the average number of woodcrafts that are made.  Notice that I have bolded the word average, an actual woodcrafter is not Mr. Average; as a result any given time a good number of woodcrafters end up producing below the average amount of woodcrafts, which means they cannot make ends meet. 

Equally a misfortune can inevitably strike any one of those woodcrafters at any time either reducing their productivity or increasing their costs.  If we are talking about a group of woodcrafters however, their actual productivity is more stable since the odds are that their productivity and costs will match more closely to the average which is what determines the prices.
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