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Author Topic: Next Release  (Read 950 times)

therahedwig

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2019, 12:00:53 pm »

Quote
I hope Toady will not pause new bug fixes and old feature releases for entire 2 years
He probably will, he has done it before. I think we had very broken military training and hospitals during that time period.

That said the myth/magic system isn't just a bit of new functionality, it will really change the game, much like how the materials or z-levels changed the game. Hell, I suspect that if we'll see armies before the myth/magic dev arc, it will turn DF into a massively different game from what it is now, because it changes the way how the player conceives of fort resources.

I do think stress and relationships will be tackled before magic though...
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Schmaven

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2019, 02:54:31 pm »

I try to just work around bugs as a fun challenge as I keep in mind this game is still not even 50% complete in its alpha stage.  Bugs and all, it remains the most entertaining game I've seen to date. 
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2019, 06:30:25 pm »

Quote
I hope Toady will not pause new bug fixes and old feature releases for entire 2 years
He probably will, he has done it before. I think we had very broken military training and hospitals during that time period.

That said the myth/magic system isn't just a bit of new functionality, it will really change the game, much like how the materials or z-levels changed the game. Hell, I suspect that if we'll see armies before the myth/magic dev arc, it will turn DF into a massively different game from what it is now, because it changes the way how the player conceives of fort resources.

I do think stress and relationships will be tackled before magic though...
He says he'll fix up stress/relationship issues before the Big Wait , and this time he'll keep a back-up of the final version on hand so if someone discovers a crash bug shortly after the Wait starts as they have in the past (tree hits building crash, weapon trap crash) he can fix it.

He won't clear the bug tracker though, of course.
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2019, 08:00:49 pm »

I mean to be fair he did tone the issues down a little bit from the insanity of the initial stress release (at least that's how I remember it), and while he realized it was still very far from balanced he decided further work could wait until he was done with villains. Keep in mind that back then he had no idea the villain work would end up dragging as long as it did, that was the result of an unlucky combination of factors, a few of them beyond Toady's control.

But yes, he'll get to further balancing out of stress and emotions before he moves onto the Big Wait. We have his word on that.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 08:02:33 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2019, 08:22:45 pm »

Well I think it works out better this way. He was going to base further stress fixes and balance tweaks on reports from long-term fortress players. Now there's been plenty of time to gather the data he needs to improve the balance rather than having to rely on initial knee-jerk reactions.

(So long as he can filter out all the many dorfy pages of "here's how to work around stress and relationships forming issues using only a pair of manacles, a tiny room and an automatic water-pressure operated feeding mechanism" stuff).  :)
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Sarmatian123

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2019, 04:06:22 am »

Surely stress issues would be less potent, if they didn't last and last for years spinning into vicious cycles.

Also it wouldn't be so hard if:

a) Cloths lasted 5 years instead of 2 in Fortress Mode. In Adventure Mode cloths rot and fall off in mere 3 weeks. It got to be fixed, specially for leather clothing! Surely woolen socks do not last as long as leather jacket, but... come on folks... do leather jackets rot off from your bodies in mere 6 years?
b) Rain, big time. Even if it is annoying and can cause illness, it is just water.
c) The kitchens' selection of ingredients. Missing implementation of receipts feature (kitchen/library) took it both from automation processes and from workshop choices.
d) This strange emotional flipping over 1 dead body of foreign diplomat, who died from dehydration (caused by depression! another emotional bug with visiting diplomats?) and then amplified for not being properly buried, but dropped in bodies stockpile. Though Fortress Mode does not provide burial rights for visiting humans, as their deaths do not produce ghosts.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2019, 09:29:49 am »

Trauma is meant to happen. Traumatic events are meant to be traumatic. Without that, there is no stress system. But it needs further balancing. Plus new features like leaving the fortress to meet needs, but I think we'll have to live with that one for a while.

Stress isn't meant to stack in the way it does right now (so discovering a body is a traumatic event, but discovering several pieces of a body isn't meant to be several traumatic events).

And a lot of the big positive destressors (besides religion) are to do with relationships (friends, love, marriage, children, etc) which isn't working properly right now. Combine that with negative thoughts brought on by not being able to spend time with friends because bugged dorf brains never allow them the impulse to spend time with friends and making new ones and you have a fortress-wide pychological problem.

So it's a combination of little things that Toady has to get working together in harmony to find a good balanced(ish) stress system. Not just an issue of, "dorfs find hacked up bodies of their friends disturbing, it's so stupid nerf it" as some like to post.
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Sarmatian123

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2019, 12:18:25 pm »

If your tavern, library and temple is open only to citizens and long time visitors, and if the bugged diplomats going nuts are somehow connected with this closure, then there are 2 solutions really:

1. Make exceptional allowance to foreign diplomats to use facilities closed to non-citizens.
2. Cut their visit short.

That would solve this issue of visiting diplomats, going depressed and dying from dehydration without " that causes stress, nerf it!". :D
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therahedwig

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2019, 06:08:26 pm »

Or, you know, fix bugs with foreign diplomats? Similarly to, fix bugs with relationships never being formed, and fix bugs with trauma inducers being multiplied? (And maybe turn off the stress thoughts from needs that cannot be fulfilled for now if they require a more complicated system)
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2019, 10:52:30 pm »

Im excited for the new features and tried of the negativity.

Im going to repeat what someone said earlier, lets not make toady rush releases okay toady does a good job, if you dont think hes doing a good job i dont know why you are here.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 10:54:08 pm by Untrustedlife »
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Untrustedlife

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2019, 10:55:45 pm »

Quote
I hope Toady will not pause new bug fixes and old feature releases for entire 2 years
He probably will, he has done it before. I think we had very broken military training and hospitals during that time period.

That said the myth/magic system isn't just a bit of new functionality, it will really change the game, much like how the materials or z-levels changed the game. Hell, I suspect that if we'll see armies before the myth/magic dev arc, it will turn DF into a massively different game from what it is now, because it changes the way how the player conceives of fort resources.

I do think stress and relationships will be tackled before magic though...
He says he'll fix up stress/relationship issues before the Big Wait , and this time he'll keep a back-up of the final version on hand so if someone discovers a crash bug shortly after the Wait starts as they have in the past (tree hits building crash, weapon trap crash) he can fix it.

He won't clear the bug tracker though, of course.

Toady is VERY good at coming through with promises, so i dont know why people are worried and complaining.
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2019, 11:44:49 pm »

I don't know either. That said, it doesn't strike me as an especially sizeable portion of forum-goers complaining. Most of the comments I've seen on the upcoming features are indeed very excited and optimistic, it's just that there are always vocal minorities.
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therahedwig

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2019, 07:17:08 am »

I think there's been a handful of new people who aren't used to a DF release cycle yet, so they are not really aware there's going to be a rapid fire of 4 to 8 bugfix releases after this release is done :)

For my case, I am pretty sure that anything which isn't a crash or well identified bug might stick around for a while, much like how the stress issues haven't had an update for the past week because he's been busy with villains, but I know there will be a cycle of fixes.

That said, I am not sure if I'm more excited for the bugfixes, or more excited for the inevitable bugreport where someone's turkeys are plotting an assassination of the bookkeeper because the bookkeeper refused to look away when the turkeys were embezzling.
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Sarmatian123

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2019, 03:26:53 pm »

Those rapid releases will be coming mostly for bugs or urgent balancing. Maybe one of the skipped features will appear or two... I played Adventure Mode just for 2 months (trying my new cpu out). I am Fortress Mode dweller lol. Adventure Mode has some fundamental issues in crash/lag bugs. Some missing features too. However the thought behind, that bug fixes and missing features should be coming on yearly basis, even if new system will take 2 years is, there are so many of them. One 3 months long session of rapid fixing will not patch it even on surface. Just check development pages for still missing implementations of old systems. Furthermore adding more unfinished and bugged systems will just pile its bugs and rough edges on top of older system bugs causing spinning out of control issues, which can be not fixable without entire older system rewrite. So, yeah I would say Toady should keep making one system per one time (a big wait after big wait) so long it takes, until he is finished with them, but bugs fixes and still missing features should be coming on yearly basis as well as continued balancing to all already existing systems. So imho maintenance cycle should be 3 months each year, no matter in which point the big wait is in... Keeping things this way, would maybe give few patches to the engine turning abstract world into real world and real world back into abstract world. Keep it less glitchy, you know. That would surely give Adventure Mode a second youth in a way.
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mikekchar

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Re: Next Release
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2019, 11:31:31 pm »

You'll get no argument from me about that.  One of the things I like about this Pre-Big-Wait period is that we get relatively frequent releases with corresponding bug fixes.  For me the bug fixes are at least as exciting as the new features because they tend to unblock the previous features that never worked that well :-)  Having said that, I started playing seriously in the last Big Wait and there were lots of things broken.  But there are lots of things that weren't broken too.  You have to adjust your playing style to match the game, for better or for worse.  I expect the next big wait to be exactly the same -- lots of things broken, but lots of things not broken and it will take me the entire Big Wait to learn how to separate the two :-)
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