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Author Topic: The Dwarven Language Codified  (Read 14344 times)

VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2019, 12:24:24 pm »

My moratorium on M´k has ended. I think it is important enough to include, so I will add it to the codification. Could we maybe change it to Mik, though? I imagine that most users will find typing an ALT code (as it does not appear on English keyboards) for that letter every time to be annoying, so making it a normal i would be easier. Linguistic utility is more important than adherence to in-game text if we want this language to be useful. Moreover, language_DWARF is only used for names, and names are often exceptions to rules. A place in France might have a French name which was inherited from the medieval Frankish name which was inherited from the ancient Latin name which was inherited from the more ancient Celtic name which was inherited from some pre-Indo-European language, so that name would be weird due being processed by all those languages.

Surely, I have no problem with that. Mik- it is ^^

Yes, ┘ is the proper prefix, not ┌. I forget sometimes because they look so similar. I have just added everything to the end of a copy of language_DWARF to make a "dictionary". I suppose I could type everything into an Excel spreadsheet, but that sounds like a huge amount of work for little gain, as we already have a list. You can just CTRL-F to find whatever you seek. One major problem with this, however, is that language_DWARF does not render some Dwarven letters properly. That I why I could not find ţd, as it appears as something else. I suppose making our own list would be better, but I feel a bout of "I don't feel like it" overcoming me.

I'll make a dictionary here and post it. Then you can copy it all and post in your own post (for easy editing). Then just keep it up to date and link to it on the OP.

I still don't like the determiners. Because of Dwarven's modular nature (nouns can be used as verbs, verbs can be nouns, etc.), I fear that people would rapidly become attached to those determiners and use them as nouns to take the place of pronouns. I guess they would become propronouns.

Makes sense. But isn't that how languages naturally evolve? I can imagine some people using it as pronouns (wrongly) and it be seen as uncivilized while proper dwarfish does not do so. But I understand your apprehension and I have no problem if you don't include it in the language. Could you then write in the grammar the proper way of saying "this X" or "that X"? That would help a lot.

Emosor Tetˇthfikod would be fine if you make one of those an apposition. Tetˇthfikod 'Emosor' makes sense to me, as it means Tetˇthfikod the eastern kingdom. Perhaps that could be used for titles too. Etur 'Etag' = Etur the king, Etur who is king.

That could work aye but it is rather taxing because we use such things a lot. One solution I tried while translating my Annals was simply to keep it unedited beside the word. So instead of Emosor-longTetˇthfikod I wrote Emosor Tetˇthfikod. Would that cause confusion?

I dislike 'lug because it guarantees collocations, which I expressly avoid. Collocations like "king and country" or "lo and behold" become linguistically frozen and retain antiquated elements ("lo" appears in no other context), and the meaning is held by the phrase, not the separate words. I want all words to be meaningful, so establishing collocations which must always be recited the same way each time does not appeal to me.

Understandable. I will remove it then.

Mother being Bobrur is no problem. This is just like in Swedish, as the full word for mother is "moder". However, moder becomes abbreviated as "mor". Similarly, "fader" (father) becomes "far". Mormor = mother's mother, farmor = father's mother. Bobrur could thus be shortened as Bor. I suppose urem could be shortened as ur. Borbor = mother's mother, Urbor = father's mother. I think your terms for genealogy sound poetic, but I think they would be confusing elsewhere. I think a system of agglutinating numbers and abbreviated familial titles (father, mother, brother, etc.) is simpler.
To keep it consistent shouldn't father be Um? Mother's mother Borbor, father's father Umum? I like the system. It is simple and easy enough. Can you make similar names for paternal-uncle's son and so on? Given that my dwarves are clan affiliated I wanted to make sure they actually knew what side of the family everyone was.

I like your annal text now. The problem with D˘bar-longUltŔrzefon is understandable, but I think context makes the meaning clear. I suppose you could pick a postposition to abstractly mean what you intend. Pre/postpositions are finicky anyway. For example, in English one says "I am interested *in* that", but in German one says "Ich interessiere mich da*fŘr*" (I interest myself *for* that). The same idea is being expressed by both phrases, but for whatever reason different prepositions are chosen.

I changed it to simply D˘bar UltŔrzefon. Would it cause confusion?

The current text:

╬DTH╬KUT ULT╚RZEFON'▄B

Havudiz Zunarkimosor. Osor kabudiz'ver Emosor 'Tetˇthfikod' lok Sitalosor 'Sazir Arist' lok Irolosor 'Urvad Ked lok Migrurmonom lok Timnńrducim' lok Lalosor 'Mafol Gesis lok Titthalaban'. Thţkut varudiz ╬dthţkut UltŔrzefon'Řb 'Onolbom-longTitthalaban' Ashok'ar-longTorishselor-longEtur █thirlolor Etar lok D˘bar UltŔrzefon Ashok'ishob-longSolon Orsistiden ─rged-longMelbil Etar 'Etur-longMadir lok Adr´th'.

Nirtţd. Eturnirtţd. Etur █thirlolor '─rged-longNabasdan "Daros lok Nadakavum'"' d˘bargeth Ineth UltŔrzefon Etur-longSolam'esh Laladek'og-longShßmmanonol musarudiz'ver Raz Ograd. Etur kabgeth'ver Etar-longOsor Titthalaban Etar-longKalur'esh UltŔrzefon'ok lok Dastot Asteshseng Aral Singeth'ver Etar'ud UltŔrzefon-longNirt´lulsarÓm gat ¤lulsarÓm abodgeth'ver ╬dlush˘n'ok Etńg'ud 'Onsmost Egulsavot Lisigzatthud'. ╬ton Etarshorast Aral Singeth'ver Etar'ud Osor'ol-longGńrem. Gńrem nˇtongeth'ver Gńtizeznirţd D˘bar Ineth'avor. Etur Etar havgeth ┼tizeznobţd van Etur vergeth Etar. Inenbom Adilshalig d˘bargeth'ver Led ¤ngizudil Aral'ud 'D˘bar ¤ngiz Thedak' nikotudiz Shed'urt-longEtur Etar dural Gidur-longKiron´lulsarÓm.

Translation:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Vocabulary:
Sin - to choose
┘sin - Chooser (He who chooses)
Aral - It means woman but here I use it to mean Mrs. because my dwarves in particular follow their lineages from both the male and female line and in the Annals I try to make clear who is female and who is male because it defines how their surnames are transmitted in this particular civilization, the matrillinial surname element being translated transmitted by the mother as the first half of the surname. It could be just a regional thing.
Etńg - It means big but I am using it alone to mean Giant. Could be contextual.
Van - I used Van to mean When because this isn't a question so it can't be vanag so I just removed the question element -ag and put van in the beginning. If this is wrong please correct me.
Inenbom - Hillocks. Hill + Home.
D˘bar - As a noun I am using it to mean founder or creator.
Shed - In Dwarfish it says shed means "ordered". That didn't make sense to me so I am assuming it just means "to give an order" or "order" as in command.
Kiron - Kiron means Holy but I am using it as a tactful and respectful way of referencing a deceased person. Like how we say "the late X".

Notes:
I am mostly substituting the pronouns for the Titles of the people in question. I figure that would be respectful. So instead of saying ╬ton was born I say The General was born when I mean to say She was born. I used the word hav instead of is when speaking of age because being a certain year is strange and writing "years of age" seems convoluted in Dwarfish so I prefered just "King Etur had 82 years". I also eliminated the "long" whenever I saw an "of" phrase that didn't make sense with long. Specially name phrases. I used " " when something is a clarification inside a clarification. So basically, double ' '. The dates are given first from the founding of the city and second the King's regnal year.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 12:35:18 pm by VABritto »
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Inarius

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #91 on: August 02, 2019, 01:15:09 pm »

@Solitarian : If you want to speak to Toady, you generally use Lime green as a text color (look at Future of the Fortress topic).
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Solitarian

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #92 on: August 02, 2019, 01:19:13 pm »

Inarius:
I did not know that. Maybe I'll find some place to squeeze that in here. Though he would need to see the thread to see my green text, meaning he would need to be aware of the thread anyway, which would defeat the purpose of trying to tell him about the thread here.



VABritto:
Sure, here's an example to show a proper way to say this x / that x. Tangshokmug (here cheese, the cheese that is here, this cheese). Dogshokmug would then be there cheese, the cheese that is there, that cheese.

If you want to make a dictionary, then please do! Maybe it could be a file on DFFD?

Would Emosor Tetˇthfikod cause confusion? Possibly, but I think context would make the meaning clear. I suppose you would use an apposition only when you want to emphasize it for clarity.

Sure, Um works as an abbreviation for urem.
Brother = alud, which could be abbreviated as ad. Sister = anir, so let's make that ar. Girl is saruth, so let's make that suth. Boy is urged, so let's mak that ud.
Umarud = father's sister's son, i.e. cousin. Borar = mother's sister, i.e. aunt. Zeztumadsuth = tenth father's brother's daughter, i.e. a cousin from ten generations ago.

D˘bar UltŔrzefon means "creation UltŔrzefon"... that works, I suppose. It could be like Latin and imply a pre/postposition. I would be confused if I saw that, though. Maybe you could make it all one big compound word like UltŔrzefond˘bar?

Eturnirtţd = Etur first year? I think Etur the first would be Nirtetur (first etur) or Etur 'nirt' (Etur who is first).
An apposition within an apposition! Fancy! Your text mostly looks good.
What is 'og? I don't see that in the list of postpositions. Do you mean "because"? The postposition for that is 'ud. Og is a conjunction.
Remember to write hypens in the verbs. d˘bar-geth, not d˘bargeth. That might seem pedantic, but it makes the text easier to read, as verbs become more obvious so syntax is easier to follow.

"Shed" would mean ordered as an adjective, i.e. orderly, in good order. I like your poetic flair, as that personalizes the language and makes it seem real. Moreover, different players could establish different "dialects" with varying patterns of speech. Kiron being used to refer to dead people makes sense to me. I think using titles as pronouns is sensible. "King Etur had 82 years" sounds great! I like it! You are much more poetic than I am, you wordsmith! I expected people to eliminate superfluous longs and udizs and so on because they would become cumbersome and annoying due to repetition. I like your workarounds! I was considering making udiz as a tense marker optional, so Urist deb Shokmug would mean Urist eats cheese. Udiz is implied there, sort of like how "Soy Solitarian" and "Yo soy Solitarian" are the same in Spanish, as "soy" implies "yo".

musar-udiz'ver meaning "is known as" makes sense to me, though I think of musar as meaning to know as in knowing a fact. I would write that the mountains are called something instead of being known as something, but your writing is not wrong.
Raz Ograd refers to a mountain range, and each mountain is a tooth (figuratively), so plurality is implied. Very good!
Using Aral as a sort of title makes sense, though I would mark it as an apposition: Led ¤ngizudil 'Aral', Led ¤ngizudil the woman / who is a woman.

I would not use "van" to mean when in the sense of "at the time of", as you can form that with the current grammar: the conjunction ud (during / as). So it could be "Etur Etar hav-geth ┼tizez-nobţd ud Etur ver-geth Etar". Etur the King had eighty-two years as Etur became king.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 01:35:25 pm by Solitarian »
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #93 on: August 02, 2019, 02:10:03 pm »

Sure, here's an example to show a proper way to say this x / that x. Tangshokmug (here cheese, the cheese that is here, this cheese). Dogshokmug would then be there cheese, the cheese that is there, that cheese.

I changed the text to reflect this. Please revise it for me when you can!

If you want to make a dictionary, then please do! Maybe it could be a file on DFFD?

That would be good. First though I am just gonna make it a post here in this thread and will update it. I think it is more accessible that way. I will follow this model:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173189.0

Would Emosor Tetˇthfikod cause confusion? Possibly, but I think context would make the meaning clear. I suppose you would use an apposition only when you want to emphasize it for clarity.

Makes sense. People would use it when the text needs clarification.

Sure, Um works as an abbreviation for urem.
Brother = alud, which could be abbreviated as ad. Sister = anir, so let's make that ar. Girl is saruth, so let's make that suth. Boy is urged, so let's mak that ud.
Umarud = father's sister's son, i.e. cousin. Borar = mother's sister, i.e. aunt. Zeztumadsuth = tenth father's brother's daughter, i.e. a cousin from ten generations ago.

Boy is ńrged so that would be ńd. Thus umarńd = father's sister's son. You have no idea how much I loved this system you made lol

D˘bar UltŔrzefon means "creation UltŔrzefon"... that works, I suppose. It could be like Latin and imply a pre/postposition. I would be confused if I saw that, though. Maybe you could make it all one big compound word like UltŔrzefond˘bar?

Good idea! I changed the text to reflect this.

Eturnirtţd = Etur first year? I think Etur the first would be Nirtetur (first etur) or Etur 'nirt' (Etur who is first).
An apposition within an apposition! Fancy!

The idea is it being "The Eturian First Year" or "the first year of Etur". The next year will be the second year of Etur. Two dating systems are used in these Annals, a running system that goes from the founding of the city of UltŔrzefon to the present year and another system (the one common people and the government beaurocracy uses) that counts the years of the Monarch's reign. If there was a second King Etur, his first year of reign would probably be written as Nobteturnirtţd "The first year of Etur II" or "the first Etur-the-Second-ian year" lol

What is 'og? I don't see that in the list of postpositions. Do you mean "because"? The postposition for that is 'ud. Og is a conjunction.

It was supposed to be 'ag lol I fixed it. Sorry

Remember to write hypens in the verbs. d˘bar-geth, not d˘bargeth. That might seem pedantic, but it makes the text easier to read, as verbs become more obvious so syntax is easier to follow.

It isn't pedantic, you are right lol I fixed it.

"Shed" would mean ordered as an adjective, i.e. orderly, in good order.

Makes sense, I was looking at the adjective meaning by mistake. It's noun meaning is Order (concept) so it seems my use in this text is ok.

I like your poetic flair, as that personalizes the language and makes it seem real. Moreover, different players could establish different "dialects" with varying patterns of speech. Kiron being used to refer to dead people makes sense to me. I think using titles as pronouns is sensible. "King Etur had 82 years" sounds great! I like it! You are much more poetic than I am, you wordsmith! I expected people to eliminate superfluous longs and udizs and so on because they would become cumbersome and annoying due to repetition. I like your workarounds!

Thank you very much! I like to imagine how ettiquete would work in the language and how dwarves would deal with it's form in a way that isn't cumbersome to them. I'm glad you are liking my ideas! And yes, I can imagine many mutually intelligeable dwarven dialects forming based on use. It would be fun to see that happen. I should specify this text then as being very specifically a book made in UltŔrzefon, Capital of Titthalaban in the world called Athira Adela, being thus a very specific dialect of a very specific dwarven people. But I will try to make it as 'standardized' as humanly possible so as to give people a good example on how to use the language :)

I expected people to eliminate superfluous longs and udizs and so on because they would become cumbersome and annoying due to repetition. I like your workarounds! I was considering making udiz as a tense marker optional, so Urist deb Shokmug would mean Urist eats cheese. Udiz is implied there, sort of like how "Soy Solitarian" and "Yo soy Solitarian" are the same in Spanish, as "soy" implies "yo".

I can understand the elimination of superfluous longs but I think Udizes are harder to eliminate because we don't have any infinitive marker. As of now I am using the unmarked verb as an infinitve as you can see with the word "dural" (to honor) in the end of my first phrase. "Soy" is different because "soy" actually includes inside it the information that is being omitted (yo is the only pronoun that can be used with soy, making yo superfluous). Udiz actually carries independent information because it differentiates a conjugated present tense verb from an infinitive verb.

musar-udiz'ver meaning "is known as" makes sense to me, though I think of musar as meaning to know as in knowing a fact. I would write that the mountains are called something instead of being known as something, but your writing is not wrong.

I used it to imply that it is known by people. As in, this is the name people know it is called. I think it expresses popular knowledge. If I said it is called this it sounds more like I am giving its proper name that is internally its own. When I say it is known as this it implies it could be known as other things as well and this is only its dwarven name. That's how I saw it at least lol

Raz Ograd refers to a mountain range, and each mountain is a tooth (figuratively), so plurality is implied. Very good!

Thanks! Workarounds galore! XD

Using Aral as a sort of title makes sense, though I would mark it as an apposition: Led ¤ngizudil 'Aral', Led ¤ngizudil the woman / who is a woman.

I edited the text to comply with this.

I would not use "van" to mean when in the sense of "at the time of", as you can form that with the current grammar: the conjunction ud (during / as). So it could be "Etur Etar hav-geth ┼tizez-nobţd ud Etur ver-geth Etar". Etur the King had eighty-two years as Etur became king.

I edited the text to comply with this.

I also corrected some Possessive case mistakes I was making (I swapped possessor with possessee a lot)

Please correct it if there is anything wrong. Here is the new edition:

╬DTH╬KUT ULT╚RZEFON'▄B

Hav-udiz Zunarkimosor. Dogosor kab-udiz'ver Emosor 'Tetˇthfikod' lok Sitalosor 'Sazir Arist' lok Irolosor 'Urvad Ked lok Migrurmonom lok Timnńrducim' lok Lalosor 'Mafol Gesis lok Titthalaban'. Tangthţkut var-udiz ╬dthţkut UltŔrzefon'Řb 'Onolbom-longTitthalaban' Ashok'ar-longTorishselor-longEtur █thirlolor Etar lok UltŔrzefond˘bar Ashok'ishob-longSolon Orsistiden ─rged-longMelbil Etar 'Etur-longMadir lok Adr´th'.

Nirtţd. Eturnirtţd. Etur █thirlolor '─rged-longNabasdan "Daros lok Nadakavum"' d˘bar-geth Ineth UltŔrzefon Solam'esh-longEtur Laladek'ag-longShßmmanonol musar-udiz'ver Raz Ograd. Etur kab-geth'ver Etar-longOsor Titthalaban Etar-longKalur'esh UltŔrzefon'ok lok Dastot Asteshseng 'Aral' Sin-geth'ver Etar'ud Nirt´lulsarÓm-longUltŔrzefon gat ¤lulsarÓm abod-geth'ver ╬dlush˘n'ok Etńg'ud 'Onsmost Egulsavot Lisigzatthud'. ╬ton Etarshorast 'Aral' Sin-geth'ver Etar'ud Gńrem-longOsor'ol. Gńrem nˇton-geth'ver Gńtizeznirţd Inethd˘bar'avor. Etur Etar hav-geth ┼tizez-nobţd ud Etur ver-geth Etar. Inenbom Adilshalig d˘bar-geth'ver Led ¤ngizudil 'Aral''ud 'D˘bar ¤ngiz Thedak' nikot-udiz Shed'urt-longEtur Etar dural Gidur-longKiron´lulsarÓm.

Translation:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 02:33:08 pm by VABritto »
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #94 on: August 02, 2019, 02:11:37 pm »

ILTH╬KUT ARKIMTALUL'▄B 'UTHARTH╬KUT'
(Dwarven Dictionary, Book One - From A to L)

A
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B
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D
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E
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F
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G
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I
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K
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C
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L
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« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 03:52:18 pm by VABritto »
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Solitarian

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #95 on: August 02, 2019, 03:42:39 pm »

Great idea with the dictionary! You have accepted a mighty task, though (assuming you will add all the words in language_DWARF, that is). Typing all those thousands of words will surely tax you. Anytime you want to ask whether a word is ok, just let me know!

I didn't make this familial title system; I just copied it from Swedish.

I would write Nirteturţd, because the first adjective is the most important. The order of the elements reflects importance. It is the first (1) Eturian (2) year (3). However, Etur is the king and probably doesn't want his name to be a subsidiary element, so perhaps it could be Nirtţd-longNirteturikud, the first year of Etur I.'s reign. Meh, that's quite cumbersome. Your idea is better. I like this idea of having two calendars, though. It makes sense and fits real history.

You mean you want it as standardized as *dwarvenly* possible! Lucky for you, those dwarves are awfully chaotic.

You are right about udiz not being like soy. Soy is synthetic, as it is a conjugated verb, while udiz is purely analytic and has no other forms. The infinitive form would have to be the markerless verb, so I suppose the markers are not so easy to remove. Perhaps there could be colloquial contractions, just as English has "gonna" (going to) and "whatcha doin'" (what are you doing).

That "his descendent and heir" at the end confuses me. Etur-longMadir lok Adr´th means Etur belonging to Madir and Adr´th. Who are Madir and Adr´th? Did I misunderstand something? Laladek'ag is fine, though I would use 'osh instead of 'og, but that's a very fine distinction and doesn't change the meaning. Etar-longKalur'esh does not make sense to me. King of with the throne? Differentiating names is rather difficult, I've found, as the names are all taken from the word list. In real languages most names are specifically names and do not function in any other context (though there are exceptions). I suppose that's just another quirk of Dwarven! Sin-geth'ver is "was chosen"? Sin should not be capitalized, as it is a verb and not a noun. However, I am not certain where "sin" is in the lexicon. There is no word for "choose". You use 'ud (because of) to mean by... interesting. That makes sense figuratively. I thought about adding another postposition for that, but 'ud works here. Etńg as giant makes sense to me. Gńrem-longOsor'ol confuses me. General belonging to the kingdom as? The postposition should be after Gńrem, I think. Gńrem'ol-longOsor (as general of the kingdom). I like that you use 'ol. That's a tricky one. Shed'urt doesn't work because Shed refers to the concept of order, as in the counterpart to chaos. If it is under the orders of king Etur, then you should use a word like Utthat (direction). Is there supposed to be a special character at the beginning of that word? It's not displaying properly on my screen. Utthat (or ˙tthat or whatever it is) as a verb means to direct, so as a noun it must mean direction. Utthat'urt is better. I think dural by itself is strange and ungrammatical. I would change that to Mikdural'ahd-longKironsarÓm´lulgidur (for the benefit of the honoring belonging to the holy (i.e. deceased) great lord's memory). That very long compound word is poetic, right?

Otherwise your text looks good to me.
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #96 on: August 02, 2019, 08:22:45 pm »

Great idea with the dictionary! You have accepted a mighty task, though (assuming you will add all the words in language_DWARF, that is). Typing all those thousands of words will surely tax you.

It will be, but I can do it in my spare time lol

Anytime you want to ask whether a word is ok, just let me know!

When I finish writing everything down I will submit my words officially lol

I didn't make this familial title system; I just copied it from Swedish.

It is a great system lol

I would write Nirteturţd, because the first adjective is the most important. The order of the elements reflects importance. It is the first (1) Eturian (2) year (3). However, Etur is the king and probably doesn't want his name to be a subsidiary element, so perhaps it could be Nirtţd-longNirteturikud, the first year of Etur I.'s reign. Meh, that's quite cumbersome. Your idea is better.

The main issue with that is that it creates confusion (is it the first Eturian year or the first year of the first Etur?). Is there a way to know for sure without making it overly complicated? A rule of prominence of sorts.

I like this idea of having two calendars, though. It makes sense and fits real history.

I find it fun to do and it makes the world seem more alive.

You mean you want it as standardized as *dwarvenly* possible! Lucky for you, those dwarves are awfully chaotic.

Pretty much XD I'll do my best and it is good to know the standards are low lol

You are right about udiz not being like soy. Soy is synthetic, as it is a conjugated verb, while udiz is purely analytic and has no other forms. The infinitive form would have to be the markerless verb, so I suppose the markers are not so easy to remove. Perhaps there could be colloquial contractions, just as English has "gonna" (going to) and "whatcha doin'" (what are you doing).

Definitely. I believe the speech of the lowly serf would be irrecognizeable. Just remember that Spanish, Portuguese and Italian are basically broken Latin :P I can imagine a lower class dwarf saying something like "ab-uiz" instead of "hav-udiz" for example. It can pretty much become irrecognizeable after a while.

That "his descendent and heir" at the end confuses me. Etur-longMadir lok Adr´th means Etur belonging to Madir and Adr´th. Who are Madir and Adr´th? Did I misunderstand something?
The correct would be Madir lok Adr´th-longEtur, the descendent and heir of Etur. I wrote it wrong. And Madir and Adr´th are words I made up to fill the void of "descendent" and "heir" remember? I explain all vocabulary I made up in the Vocabulary section of my previous posts (with details in the Notes).

Laladek'ag is fine, though I would use 'osh instead of 'og, but that's a very fine distinction and doesn't change the meaning.

I thought of using 'osh as well but I chose 'ag deliberately because 'osh has also the meaning of "along". It made me think of something that is spread through a place. Like a bunch of houses along the southern side of the mountain range. But that wasn't what I wanted to say. I wanted to describe a city that was punctually located in a place on the southern side. So I used 'ag to show that this city isn't spread out but a walled area in a specific location.

Etar-longKalur'esh does not make sense to me. King of with the throne?

It is because I wrote it wrong lol The full phrase is "Etur kab-geth'ver Etar-longOsor Titthalaban Kalur'eshlong-Etar UltŔrzefon'ok". Etur was named King of Titthalaban with ('esh) his (-longEtar) throne (Kalur) at ('ok) UltŔrzefon.

Differentiating names is rather difficult, I've found, as the names are all taken from the word list. In real languages most names are specifically names and do not function in any other context (though there are exceptions). I suppose that's just another quirk of Dwarven!

Yes, that does take some getting used to. I think it is very very context sensitive.

Sin-geth'ver is "was chosen"? Sin should not be capitalized, as it is a verb and not a noun. However, I am not certain where "sin" is in the lexicon. There is no word for "choose".

I will remove its capitalization. Sin is a word I made up for to choose. I specified so in the Vocabulary section of a previous post lol

You use 'ud (because of) to mean by... interesting. That makes sense figuratively. I thought about adding another postposition for that, but 'ud works here.

Yes, I think the postpositions you already invented are very versatile and I sincerely think it is unlikely we would need any more since they can pretty much be used differently depending on context.

Gńrem-longOsor'ol confuses me. General belonging to the kingdom as? The postposition should be after Gńrem, I think. Gńrem'ol-longOsor (as general of the kingdom).

Yes, you are right. I will change it now!

I like that you use 'ol. That's a tricky one.

I had to be creative at times, but like I said, your postpositions are very resilient and can adapt well to situations.

Shed'urt doesn't work because Shed refers to the concept of order, as in the counterpart to chaos. If it is under the orders of king Etur, then you should use a word like Utthat (direction). Is there supposed to be a special character at the beginning of that word? It's not displaying properly on my screen. Utthat (or ˙tthat or whatever it is) as a verb means to direct, so as a noun it must mean direction. Utthat'urt is better.

It is ďtthat. And I agree. I will chang eit to ďtthat'urt.

I think dural by itself is strange and ungrammatical. I would change that to Mikdural'ahd-longKironsarÓm´lulgidur (for the benefit of the honoring belonging to the holy (i.e. deceased) great lord's memory). That very long compound word is poetic, right?

It is pretty poetic aye lol but I think my phrase is grammatically correct (based on your rules) because I am not writing Dural (Honor) but dural (to honor, infinitive form).

The phrase is "Inenbom Adilshalig d˘bar-geth'ver Led ¤ngizudil 'Aral''ud '┘d˘bar ¤ngiz Thedak' nikot-udiz ďtthat'urt-longEtur Etar dural Gidur-longKiron´lulsarÓm." The Hillocks (Inenbom) of Adilshalig were founded by ('ud) Mrs. ('Aral') Led ¤ngizudil, founder (I changed from d˘bar to ┘d˘bar just now because I forgot the ┘ xD) of the ¤ngiz Clan, acting (nikot-udiz) under the orders (ďtthat'urt) of (long) Etur Etar (King Etur) to honor (dural) the memory (Gidur) of (long) the late (kiron, holy, deceased) lady (´lul) mayor (SarÓm, look at the first vocabulary I made with -zod(en), there I explain why of SarÓm beinf used for Mayor). The title isn't Great Lady but Lady Mayor. Your form is also valid, but I don't understand why mine is not grammatically correct. Isn't the unmarked verb the infinitive?

Otherwise your text looks good to me.

I have entries going to the year 1052. It will be fun to write it all lol

Current:

╬DTH╬KUT ULT╚RZEFON'▄B

Hav-udiz Zunarkimosor. Dogosor kab-udiz'ver Emosor 'Tetˇthfikod' lok Sitalosor 'Sazir Arist' lok Irolosor 'Urvad Ked lok Migrurmonom lok Timnńrducim' lok Lalosor 'Mafol Gesis lok Titthalaban'. Tangthţkut var-udiz ╬dthţkut UltŔrzefon'Řb 'Onolbom-longTitthalaban' Ashok'ar-longTorishselor-longEtur █thirlolor Etar lok UltŔrzefond˘bar Ashok'ishob-longSolon Orsistiden ─rged-longMelbil Etar 'Madir lok Adr´th-longEtur'.

Nirtţd. Eturnirtţd. Etur █thirlolor '─rged-longNabasdan "Daros lok Nadakavum"' d˘bar-geth Ineth UltŔrzefon Solam'esh-longEtur Laladek'ag-longShßmmanonol musar-udiz'ver Raz Ograd'ol. Etur kab-geth'ver Etar-longOsor Titthalaban Kalur'esh-longEtar UltŔrzefon'ok lok Dastot Asteshseng 'Aral' sin-geth'ver Etar'ud Nirt´lulsarÓm-longUltŔrzefon gat ¤lulsarÓm abod-geth'ver ╬dlush˘n'ok Etńg'ud 'Onsmost Egulsavot Lisigzatthud'. ╬ton Etarshorast 'Aral' sin-geth'ver Etar'ud Gńrem'ol-longOsor. Gńrem nˇton-geth'ver Gńtizeznirţd Inethd˘bar'avor. Etur Etar hav-geth ┼tizez-nobţd ud Etur ver-geth Etar. Inenbom Adilshalig d˘bar-geth'ver Led ¤ngizudil 'Aral''ud '┘d˘bar ¤ngiz Thedak' nikot-udiz ďtthat'urt-longEtur Etar dural Gidur-longKiron´lulsarÓm.

Translation:
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« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 08:51:03 pm by VABritto »
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #97 on: August 02, 2019, 10:09:55 pm »

ILTH╬KUT ARKIMTALUL'▄B 'NOBTTH╬KUT'
(Dwarven Dictionary, Book Two - From M to ┼)

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« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 03:53:27 pm by VABritto »
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Solitarian

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #98 on: August 03, 2019, 01:18:36 am »

You're right, there would be confusion about whether it is the first Eturian year or the first year of the first Etur. In this case both work, but if there were two Eturs that would be confusing. I suppose we'll keep your original idea.

Embarrassingly, I forgot about your invented words! Yes, after checking your neologisms, I was much better able to understand your writing.

No, your last sentence is not grammatical because the "acting" in "acting under the orders of  Etur to honor" begins another clause, as does "to honor", so more verbs and objects are needed. You either need to begin another sentence or make that an apposition to say "who was acting". I would write: she acted under the directions of Etur in order that the mayor's memory was honored = Led ¤ngizudil nikot-geth ďtthat'urt-LongEtur Etar mit Gidur-longSarÓm dural-geth'ver.

Indeed, the postpositions are quite versatile. I might even be able to trim one or two, depending on whether their meanings can be integrated into other ones.

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Solitarian

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #99 on: August 03, 2019, 08:16:32 am »

Are you familiar with Diggy Diggy Hole, the very dwarfy song by the Yogscast? I translated it! I'm not completely satisfied, as a few lines feel a bit awkward, but overall I am happy with the result. Here it is! Sing it in the shower! Its Dwarven name is Osaleshim - the song of freedom (literally "singing freedom"). Here is the 8-bit-esque music for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vB5l6Dths4


Avuzalud fazÝs-zilir               (mine brothers celebrate)
abod osal'ol                        (strike as a song)
lilum tekkud lok isdenrir         (hoist pick and watchful ear)
taron osal'ol                        (yell as a song)
istam'utan lok thol'ishob        (without light and into the deep)
telzugobidrńthnÔzom             (grandest treasure dream)
doren sedur lok lamstesok      (diamonds emeralds and stony moltenness)
var-udiz tangonol'ok             (are here in the mountain)


dolush ber'urt                      (bear under earth)
telekurkirunkosak                  (mightiest mushroom drinkers)
bÔl unom'ok                         (growth within darkness)
emenekast lok tholmurak        (strong safety and deep boldness)
datansalul                           (iron skin)
delerosod                            (steel bones)
avuz emen-udiz arkim            (mines strengthen the dwarves)
etas-zilir osaleshim               (join the song of freedom)


ekurarkim d˘bar-udiz avuz      (the mighty dwarves create mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                    (everlasting deepest mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                    (everlasting deepest mines)
ekurarkim d˘bar-udiz avuz      (the mighty dwarves create mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                    (everlasting deepest mines)
´ssunavuz                            (everlasting mines)


adistam tangasdob¨st           (the sunlight breaches here not)
thol thol avuz'ok                   (deep deep in the mine)
´lon tangasdobgirust              (the moon never scintillates here)
arkim var berdok                   (dwarves are earthen hegemons)
esmul-zilir ucat˘fid                (fill a beer cup)
fazÝs'ok deb lok nastid            (in the celebration eat and cavort)
dogzust var arkimadbok          (that bed is a dwarven sponge)
nÔzom onolgeshud'ok             (dreams within the mountain fortress)


dolush ber'urt                       (bear under earth)
midorbol lambobrur'ok             (powerfully grow inside stone mother)
arkimarban var ber                 (the dwarven cradle is earth)
rakust var onollolok                (the tomb is mountainous granite)
bardum arkim'ist var rÔsh        (a fight against dwarves is death)
mulonashok                          (every time)
nist'utan abod onol                (without fear strike the mountain)
avuz var asdobßgthol             (the mines are never overly deep)


ekurarkim d˘bar-udiz avuz       (the mighty dwarves create mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                    (everlasting deepest mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                     (everlasting deepest mines)
ekurarkim d˘bar-udiz avuz       (the mighty dwarves create mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                     (everlasting deepest mines)
´ssunavuz                             (everlasting mines)


ekurarkim d˘bar-udiz avuz       (the mighty dwarves create mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                     (everlasting deepest mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                     (everlasting deepest mines)
ekurarkim d˘bar-udiz avuz       (the mighty dwarves create mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                    (everlasting deepest mines)
´ssunavuz                             (everlasting mines)


dolush ber'urt                       (bear under earth)
telekurkirunkosak                   (mightiest mushroom drinkers)
bÔl unom'ok                          (growth within darkness)
emenekast lok tholmurak        (strong safety and deep boldness)
datansalul                            (iron skin)
delerosod                             (steel bones)
avuz emen-udiz arkim             (mines strengthen the dwarves)
etas-zilir osaleshim                (join the song of freedom)


ekurarkim d˘bar-udiz avuz       (the mighty dwarves create mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                    (everlasting deepest mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                     (everlasting deepest mines)
ekurarkim d˘bar-udiz avuz       (the mighty dwarves create mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                    (everlasting deepest mines)
´ssunavuz                             (everlasting mines)


ekurarkim d˘bar-udiz avuz       (the mighty dwarves create mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                     (everlasting deepest mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                     (everlasting deepest mines)
ekurarkim d˘bar-udiz avuz        (the mighty dwarves create mines)
´ssunteltholavuz                     (everlasting deepest mines)
´ssunavuz                             (everlasting mines)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 04:18:37 pm by Solitarian »
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #100 on: August 03, 2019, 10:13:16 am »

No, your last sentence is not grammatical because the "acting" in "acting under the orders of  Etur to honor" begins another clause, as does "to honor", so more verbs and objects are needed. You either need to begin another sentence or make that an apposition to say "who was acting". I would write: she acted under the directions of Etur in order that the mayor's memory was honored = Led ¤ngizudil nikot-geth ďtthat'urt-LongEtur Etar mit Gidur-longSarÓm dural-geth'ver.

Makes sense! I will change the text to reflect this format.

Indeed, the postpositions are quite versatile. I might even be able to trim one or two, depending on whether their meanings can be integrated into other ones.

If I were you I'd wait until we have more texts in the language. It would give you a better idea of what is superfluous and what isn't (people might find uses to certain postpositions that you didn't anticipate).

Current version:

╬DTH╬KUT ULT╚RZEFON'▄B

Hav-udiz Zunarkimosor. Dogosor kab-udiz'ver Emosor 'Tetˇthfikod' lok Sitalosor 'Sazir Arist' lok Irolosor 'Urvad Ked lok Migrurmonom lok Timnńrducim' lok Lalosor 'Mafol Gesis lok Titthalaban'. Tangthţkut var-udiz ╬dthţkut UltŔrzefon'Řb 'Onolbom-longTitthalaban' Ashok'ar-longTorishselor-longEtur █thirlolor Etar lok UltŔrzefond˘bar Ashok'ishob-longSolon Orsistiden ─rged-longMelbil Etar 'Madir lok Adr´th-longEtur'.

Nirtţd. Eturnirtţd. Etur █thirlolor ─rged-longNabasdan 'Daros lok Nadakavum' d˘bar-geth Ineth UltŔrzefon Solam'esh-longEtur Laladek'ag-longShßmmanonol musar-udiz'ver Raz Ograd'ol. Etur kab-geth'ver Etar-longOsor Titthalaban Etar-longKalur'esh UltŔrzefon'ok lok Dastot Asteshseng 'Aral' sin-geth'ver Etar'ud Nirt´lulsarÓm-longUltŔrzefon gat ¤lulsarÓm abod-geth'ver ╬dlush˘n'ok Etńg'ud 'Onsmost Egulsavot Lisigzatthud'. ╬ton Etarshorast 'Aral' sin-geth'ver Etar'ud Gńrem'ol-longOsor. Gńrem nˇton-geth'ver Gńtizeznirţd Inethd˘bar'avor. Etur Etar hav-geth ┼tizez-nobţd ud Etur ver-geth Etar. Inenbom Adilshalig d˘bar-geth'ver Led ¤ngizudil 'Aral''ud '┘d˘bar ¤ngiz Thedak'. SarÓm nikot-geth ďtthat'urt-longEtur Etar mit Gidur-longKiron´lulsarÓm dural-geth'ver.

Nobtţd. Eturnobtţd. Olin Becorlikot 'Udos ┘d˘bar Likot Thedak' ver-geth Nobt´lulsarÓm-longUltŔrzefon. ¤lulsarÓm var-geth Thimshur-long╬ton Etarshorast Gńrem '┘d˘bar Etar Thedak' lok ¤lulsarÓm nˇton-geth'ver fimizez-nobţd Inethd˘bar'avor. Semortilat-longDan aban-udiz Etarlikot Meden. Etur Etar thimshur-geth EdŰm Adildostob '┘d˘bar Adil Thedak'. Semordan aban-udiz Adillolor Meden. Led ¤ngizudil SarÓm-longAdilshalig thimshur-geth Monom Oshoshrţsen 'Udos ┘d˘bar Rţsen Thedak'. Semordan aban-udiz ¤ngizrţsen Meden.

Translation:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Vocabulary
Aban - Aban means construct, but I am using it as a verb here to construct or form. It would be the word to form when related to something that is formed by seperate pieces.
Thimshur - I'm using this for a generic word for husband and wife (they can specify it more when needed by saying Udos and Aral). As a verb I am using it for to marry
Tilat - I used Tilat instead of Madir for descendent purposefully because Tilat is more inclusive (Madir gives the impression of a descendent after the person's children. It indicates lineage. While Tilat means children, so it includes the first generation descendents more)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 10:19:21 am by VABritto »
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #101 on: August 03, 2019, 10:20:54 am »

Are you familiar with Diggy Diggy Hole, the very dwarfy song by the Yogscast? I translated it! I'm not completely satisfied, as a few lines feel a bit awkward, but overall I am happy with the result. Here it is! Sing it in the shower! Its Dwarven name is Osaleshim - the song of freedom (literally "singing freedom").

I never heard of this before! Very nice lol
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #102 on: August 03, 2019, 11:04:51 am »

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Superdorf

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #103 on: August 03, 2019, 01:11:35 pm »

Are you familiar with Diggy Diggy Hole, the very dwarfy song by the Yogscast? I translated it! I'm not completely satisfied, as a few lines feel a bit awkward, but overall I am happy with the result. Here it is! Sing it in the shower! Its Dwarven name is Osaleshim - the song of freedom (literally "singing freedom").

This is wonderful! Let's set it to music. :D
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VABritto

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Re: The Dwarven Language Codified
« Reply #104 on: August 03, 2019, 01:29:21 pm »

Are you familiar with Diggy Diggy Hole, the very dwarfy song by the Yogscast? I translated it! I'm not completely satisfied, as a few lines feel a bit awkward, but overall I am happy with the result. Here it is! Sing it in the shower! Its Dwarven name is Osaleshim - the song of freedom (literally "singing freedom").

This is wonderful! Let's set it to music. :D

For that we need to establish the sounds of certain letters, but it is definitely doable!

One sound I propose is that C has the sound of /t∫/ (aka the sound of ch in church or the sound of C in Italian Cesare). The vowels will be the more complicated part because each should be distinct (since they actually differentiate words)
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