Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 93 94 [95] 96 97 ... 119

Author Topic: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 131644 times)

Cruxador

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1410 on: April 07, 2020, 02:11:30 pm »

Did Toady actually announce this? I checked the devlog, the Steam announcements, and FotF and didn't see anything of the sort. Mind linking where it was mentioned, or at least pointing me in the right direction?

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/

03/25/2020 entry, near the end of the second to last paragraph.
Ah, thanks. I guess I must have been distracted by the pretty pictures.
Logged

bloop_bleep

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1411 on: April 07, 2020, 02:23:17 pm »

Maybe have unexplored rock be solid or have a super slight texture with occasional animated sparkles or something. Just to fill in the emptiness with something mysterious. Like voliol says, if everything is all grey, moving in z-layers won't have feedback. Maybe have some shadowy tendrils that shift through the darkness. Just anything to make different layers stand apart.

Maybe make it so that the deeper you go the more sparkles and tendrils you see. To emphasize that you might be digging too deep and too greedily.

I like this idea.

However, I have to say, I don't really like the look of those walls very much.

Here is part of what I was talking about, mocked up with what I believe are constructed walls made from blocks, not sure:



Obviously you could come up with a pattern that's less regular than a series of elongated blocks, but the idea is that single-tile-thick walls get filled in completely.

(Either type.)

These walls, I guess, look too messy. All those little blocks make it seem irregular and cobbled together, and broken, instead of one cohesive smooth wall, and sort of reminds me of human teeth.

I think the main problem is the outlines of the blocks within the tile stand out too much and distract me from the actual shape of the wall, and its overall outline. Maybe make the inner gaps light grey, as if filled with mortar, decreasing the contrast they create? Alternatively, you could try making the blocks thicker, like twice as thick. That'll really help.

And yes, I would prefer one-tile-thick walls to be filled in completely.
Logged
Quote from: KittyTac
The closest thing Bay12 has to a flamewar is an argument over philosophy that slowly transitioned to an argument about quantum mechanics.
Quote from: thefriendlyhacker
The trick is to only make predictions semi-seriously.  That way, I don't have a 98% failure rate. I have a 98% sarcasm rate.

Pillbo

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1412 on: April 07, 2020, 06:38:00 pm »

I have to say, I don't really like the look of those walls very much.

Here is part of what I was talking about, mocked up with what I believe are constructed walls made from blocks, not sure:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Obviously you could come up with a pattern that's less regular than a series of elongated blocks, but the idea is that single-tile-thick walls get filled in completely.

(Either type.)

These walls, I guess, look too messy. All those little blocks make it seem irregular and cobbled together, and broken, instead of one cohesive smooth wall, and sort of reminds me of human teeth.

I'm not a fan of the first one, like we saw in sample images, it feels more haphazard than a finely build wall.

What I had in mind, at least, was smoothed natural stone walls like these in India: https://hiddenincatours.com/enigmatic-barabar-caves-india-lost-ancient-high-technology/

http://www.pragyata.com/mag/the-ancient-barabar-caves-near-gaya-808

all a beautiful high gloss, and that block walls, through superior craftdwarfship, would match them in their mirror polish, definitely not that dwarves would carve natural walls to look like blocks.

I don't dare speak for Toady beyond quoting, but we appear to agree that the two smoothed cases should match, so I can mine some ugly malachite vein out of my beautiful marble dining room, and then fill in the gaps with a marble block wall that only a master mason could tell from the natural smoothed stone? (It would be nice if they matched as far as climbing goes as well, but that's not in your hands, I know.)

I'll admit I'm less concerned with rough mined walls and boulder walls, but I wonder if it would bother anyone for them to match as well. It would certainly reduce the number of unique tiles needed if the cases were reduced to "smooth," as above, and "rough" as below:

https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/straight-adit-medieval-mine-banska-600w-1456725656.jpg (dug mine)

https://as2.ftcdn.net/jpg/01/19/13/45/500_F_119134596_3qvL4si0ieZNJTZ4jnbYuKIaiRxnplBj.jpg (boulder wall)

I totally agree. I've always imaged smoothed stone to be just that, perfectly smoothed natural rock, no seems or textures like it was built. I voted for constructed & smooth natural stone to look similar but not the same. That was before Toady said he's allow smoothing and engraving of constructed walls, with that change I'm for constructed smoothed walls to be identical to natural stone.
Logged

Kiloku

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1413 on: April 08, 2020, 04:46:02 pm »

Just as an aside, does it make sense for this thread to be in a subforum of "DF Modding"? I think it'd have more visibility somewhere else, and it's not modding if it's official  :P
Logged

voliol

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1414 on: April 08, 2020, 06:06:46 pm »

Just as an aside, does it make sense for this thread to be in a subforum of "DF Modding"? I think it'd have more visibility somewhere else, and it's not modding if it's official  :P
+1

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1415 on: April 08, 2020, 06:30:46 pm »

Just as an aside, does it make sense for this thread to be in a subforum of "DF Modding"? I think it'd have more visibility somewhere else, and it's not modding if it's official  :P
+1
Agree. At first it was fine here, but it's very...well, very Dwarf Fortress, for new people to have to dig two layers into the mods forum to find somewhere to comment on the game graphics.
Logged

voliol

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1416 on: April 08, 2020, 08:10:25 pm »

Just as an aside, does it make sense for this thread to be in a subforum of "DF Modding"? I think it'd have more visibility somewhere else, and it's not modding if it's official  :P
+1
Agree. At first it was fine here, but it's very...well, very Dwarf Fortress, for new people to have to dig two layers into the mods forum to find somewhere to comment on the game graphics.
This thread is also getting even more focus now that Toady has shifted over to work on the graphics. As for its destination, DF general seems apt, no? All the other ”official development threads” are over there.

Meph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • worldbicyclist
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1417 on: April 09, 2020, 05:39:47 am »

I'm not the judge of that. ^^

What would you guys think about unique corpse and remains sprites? Now that vermin all get a unique sprite, it's a bit odd to have a single sprite for all remains.

Logged
::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1418 on: April 09, 2020, 07:21:50 am »

I assume that was a rhetoric question...
Logged

Meph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • worldbicyclist
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1419 on: April 09, 2020, 07:30:27 am »

Not really.

It makes corpses visually more appealing. (Yep, that's a sentence I just wrote. That happened.), but at the same time it might add some confusion. A single corpse/remain sprite is much easier to identify than a mix of several hundred. "What's the pixel-heap supposed to be? 'k', have a look, oh, ok, it's a dead tick, got it".
Logged
::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

jecowa

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1420 on: April 09, 2020, 08:17:05 am »

I'm not the judge of that. ^^

What would you guys think about unique corpse and remains sprites? Now that vermin all get a unique sprite, it's a bit odd to have a single sprite for all remains.




Yes! The more the merrier. Maybe there could be multiple dead forms of the civilized races. Maybe cut in half, or impaled, or drowned, or disease.
Logged

Manveru Taurënér

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1421 on: April 09, 2020, 08:38:47 am »

For the smallest stuff like arthropods etc a small splat or something would probably be enough for all of them (maybe of a few different colours if needed). But where it's possible to make a nice dead version (like the squirrel and lizard there) go for it I say ^^
Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1422 on: April 09, 2020, 09:45:18 am »

The top one favours visual simplicity, while the bottom one more accurately represents how ramps function in game in terms of fluid mechanics. They both work and make sense. It's just a matter of choices now.


(Nearly caught up on this thread after a long lag. Plenty of room to have been Ninjaed, though.)

In general I agree with the need for fluid movement to be accommodated (1-3/7th of a liquid in a full-depth dip should not be seen wetting up and over a half-height ridge in a one-tile ramped-channel between that sunken area and any adjacent area it could spread into) but if the double-steepness ramps needed to drag the groove down to the same floor-level as the sideways-adjacent are as traversable as the standard type (for walking or wagoneering passage) then it might lead one to believe that it is practicle to connect a 2z difference of height with two double-steep ramps (one reaching down to the tile-centre, the other reaching up to there from an opposite or adjacent side, or something more complicated involving the corners).

I would also be happier with the flatter version of isolated ramp-spires (flat on all sides, centre at +½Z) and ramp-holes (..., centre at -½Z), as they do not functionally impede movement even as much as the implied lump in the ground or pothole, though the creature that routes over such a pothole (or into, to perhaps dig down/drift-mine further from that spot) does switch Zs. (Not so for a ramp.) Ditto, respectively, with ramp-trench/ridge across a path, including with the extraordinary behaviour of a wagon (extending into the trench wall, with some subsequent effects that produces henceforth suffered or exploited). Half-depth(/height) movement of the ground down(/up) in one tile when moving between two same-height floors that connect through (in all kinds of combinations[1]) would seem to work better for that.

And not all sides of all ramps must smoothly connect to sides. If you set a miner to stand in a ramp-pothole (centre at -½Z) and channel straight down another level then you have a 'ramp' 2Z down, but it could be as much centre @-2Z with edges/corners all at -1½Z rather than -1½ and -1Z respectively (original pothole with -1Z shift). If you go to the edge of a cliff-edged plateau (or down the wall of a cavern) digging a 'wellshaft' down the edge to send a new miner down (not trivially reversibly) to the base of the rock wall you want the open edge(s) or corner(s) that arrive at the base level to markedly align with (or slope) that bottom, and the rest are irrelevent.

Consider various other junction plans (mid-rock, but could be at least partially open-air in rough outside ground)...

▓▓▓   ▓▓▓   █▓▓   ▓█▓   ▓▓▓   ▓█▓   █▓█
█▼█   █▼▓   ▓▼▓   ▓▼▓   █▼▓   █▼█   ▓▼▓    Upper Z
▓▓▓   ▓█▓   ▓▓█   █▓█   ██▓   ▓█▓   █▓█

▓█▓   ▓█▓   █▓▓   █▓█   ▓▓▓   █▓█   ▓█▓
▓▲▓   ▓▲█   ▓▲▓   ▓▲▓   ▓▲█   ▓▲▓   █▲█    Lower Z
▓█▓   ▓▓▓   ▓█▓   ▓█▓   ▓██   █▓█   ▓█▓

(█ intended as passably dug/open, ▓ as unpassably undug/wall, but I think you could switch the two and still have at least some valid passages.)

The ramps you need lead between level, without even the complications of adjacent ramps, can be crazy or otherwise challenging (especially the +/x transitionals to the right).

IIRC, you can also 'lean' a ramp up a level against something with dynamic blocking behaviour, as well as fixed wall. So something like a floodgate would allow ramp-upping when closed but make it a nullified ramp otherwise. (If not switchable, building/removing a wall on a given spot like that could change the visible and practical ramp profile.)


And that's before you start to think about letting the below-half-depth water flow 'naturally'.


If I was starting from scratch on this problem I'd suggest not allowing one-tile ramp-gaps (iteratively propogate the digging-out, manual or in initial landscaping proc-gen, so that it is two or more), or else make the liquids respect the 3½ liquid levels of dam-depth (4+ depth flows over with 1..3 effective depth over the ½Z channel point(s), lower than that and it doesn't flow onto that ground at all).

Or fudge it. Pretend it seeps through anyway. Or assume a 'gutter' (too narrow to bother feet/wagonwheels) in the central dip.

Ditto, water behaviour across a 'ramp ridge' (when constructed, you can have a whole area left with ramps, where digging out from native full rock/soil/sand would 'evaporate' all but a select few lone spires, depending on dig-order) acts as if there's no obstruction so instead of a broad 'pillow' of raised ground it would be more like a small herd of terrapins hunkered down. Water would flow between their shells (ostensibly, if not yet graphically).


Like everyone else, I've thought alot about this. Even did some rendering (a bit in Blender, most in POV-Ray) where I needed to decide how to handle some of the odder edge-conditions. Given that, all I can be definite about is that there is no easy solution that works entirely well for me. Which is why I'm probably happy to accept any half-way decent solution that someone else makes into some kind of solid reality. Won't mean I'm not going to grumble at all, of course. ;)


[1] I don't envy Mephday's problems with this. There are far too many combinations of each edge(-centre?) or corner-point possibly needing to be tied-high, tied-low or else allowed to float wherever seems best - at the very least considerations about not even being passable on that vertex, a choice of which adjacent level to tie passage to or variously co-dependent with adjacent ramp(s).
Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1423 on: April 09, 2020, 10:19:52 am »

Separate post, separate subject.

The kind of roller that you've depicted there isn't normally powered, and I'm having a hard time imagining how it would work with a minecart on top, since minecarts do, after all, have wheels. Seems like you'd basically need to take the cart off the track and turn it on its side or something? I don't know, I've only ever seen these used in packaging facilities and playgrounds.
My impression was that the power-rollers were much as I think you alude to in packaging facilities (here, on the first random site I found with a nice set of puctures) but instead of alternating with unpowered gravity/momentum rollers they are raised up and between the tracks such that they act on the underside of the cart bucket somewhat like a vertical friction wheel (the gear-version of the imagery would work exactly like that but might be less forgiving with under-/over-speed conjuctions with the payload).

The rope component of course, would be the power-transfer up to the wheel from the track-side mechanics (an underside picture on the conveyor company site indicates one possibility, but could be looped out from under the track as well) so that whatever power/direction of power you end up configuring can apply to any resting/passing truck.

IRL, it would be not impossible to imagine a mechanical leaf-switch that trips the PTO appropriately upon detecting the cart's arrival. Maybe even a mechanical speed detector such as a seperate unpowered friction-wheel, leading the powered one with governer-like mechanism to establish a magnitude useful to the pre-drive gearbox. But as a Dorf I'd just rely on the usual Mechanical Magycks to sort that out.



((Not sure I've ever seen such rollers in use in a playground situation. The versions in my mind's eye look too much like an H&S nightmare if intended to be used by children.))
Logged

mko

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #1424 on: April 09, 2020, 11:23:28 am »

I'm not the judge of that. ^^

What would you guys think about unique corpse and remains sprites? Now that vermin all get a unique sprite, it's a bit odd to have a single sprite for all remains.



+1 for unique sprites but I would make them more dead/crushed/flattened/gray. To make immediately clear what is rubbish and what is a living object.

This corpses are not clearly corpseish.

I think that "this is a corpse" should be 100% immediately clear "of foobar" is less important.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 93 94 [95] 96 97 ... 119