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Author Topic: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 191584 times)

Schmaven

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2355 on: October 17, 2020, 02:54:50 am »

With the new dwarf sprites showing clothing and armor, I think it will be fairly clear which soldiers are yours if you have a standard uniform for them.  Auras on top of that seems a bit overkill.  I mean combat is chaotic, and in the fog of war, it can be hard to tell what's going on in a fight.  Making the undead stand apart from the living seems like a good idea, and I like the glowing eyes approach for that.  So as far as enemy and friendly unit discrimination goes, if it is in fact needed, something more subtle than an aura would be nice so as not to distract from that sweet bronze armor everybody is wearing.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2356 on: October 17, 2020, 03:50:18 am »

With the new dwarf sprites showing clothing and armor, I think it will be fairly clear which soldiers are yours if you have a standard uniform for them.  Auras on top of that seems a bit overkill.  I mean combat is chaotic, and in the fog of war, it can be hard to tell what's going on in a fight.  Making the undead stand apart from the living seems like a good idea, and I like the glowing eyes approach for that.  So as far as enemy and friendly unit discrimination goes, if it is in fact needed, something more subtle than an aura would be nice so as not to distract from that sweet bronze armor everybody is wearing.
If you're successful in the artifact creation/acquisition department at least your elite troops wouldn't be particularly uniform. It can also be noted that both the fortress and the enemy may field troops of multiple races, so you can't discriminate them based on that either.

:
Imagine where the enemy line meets yours.
With the aura being around the whole sprite, it would really make that line perfectly clear in all situations.
:
The military handling would have to change quite significantly to convert the current "See enemy! Charge! (without communicating with squad mates that don't see anything)" 'strategy' into anything resembling battle lines. Time will tell if the promised "better sieges" will provide that (if so, it will happen after the Premium release anyway).
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MoltenIdol

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2357 on: October 17, 2020, 04:39:27 am »

Guys. The keyword for having the auras, is that they should be Toggleable. Thats what were here for.

If its not toggleable, well, then I truly dont want no part in it.

I just thought toggleable auras would be clearer, and less annoying than small icons on the sprite, that are always there, breaking my immerson.

TOGGLEABLE TOGGLEABLE TOGGLEABLE. Weird word.


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Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2358 on: October 17, 2020, 05:01:27 am »

It would be completely optional.
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Starver

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2359 on: October 17, 2020, 05:18:39 am »

I just thought toggleable auras would be clearer, and less annoying than small icons on the sprite, that are always there, breaking my immerson.
Unless I missed it (wouldn't be the first time), I was the one only one introducing "small icons on the sprite" in this latest iteration of discussion. And I specifically (or at least intended that I specifically) mentioned that they wouldn't always be there and that they'd be togglable.

Frankly, you've got to put some highlighting marks on there.  Whether it be aura, spotlight, tile border, floaty mini-icon or whatever.

Also consider what you do with multiple entities in the same space (all but (at most) one supine, however that gets indicated). If the same side, maybe you don't need to separate the distinguishing graphics, but if there's a battle going on (when this is useful) the likely situation is that one character is stomping on an opposing unit's head.  Could it be clearer by offsetting whatever-your-indicator-is down a few pixels for the current underdog? (And layering it behind, to be partially occluded.) Not sure how this would work with aura, except by however you deal with multi-occupancy of the core figures involved, but spotlights, halos, 'shoulder'-flashes, etc could probably equally do this. Which would be good if multiple such methods were used to depict multiple different aspects - though you'd not want (by default, at least) the screen real-estate to get much busier than it's already liable to get.

(I imagine, if the work goes into testing each method, that there could be a selection available in user-options. If they prefer a ground-spot over a halo/etc, they can choose that. And "always on/always on for military only/on during any hostile presence/on during sentient hostile presence/on for those currently|recently caught up in combat reports/on during military-management mode/never", or probably just a subset of that. But I seem to think that's already been put forward in a slightly different context.)


...aaaand, ninjaed by Meph with as good a clarification as any.
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Hiul

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2360 on: October 17, 2020, 05:43:53 am »

i dont finish reading the reply yet so maybe someone already mention this, but i prefer the aura is exclusively for the undead it more fitting, regarding to know which army is which, maybe made toggleable  background color instead of making it into an aura.

something like how conquest of elysium game do it, but you can has option to choose or modified what your preferable color for yours and enemy or neutral be, so even color blind can  have an option to know which is which, also i think this can help to know which is an active unit or not, and also help to know or easier to distinguish where your army is located from the other non military mess.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 04:32:53 am by Hiul »
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Pillbo

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2361 on: October 17, 2020, 01:31:21 pm »

With current tilesets I do not struggle to tell who is an invader and who isn't. I don't imagine it will get more difficult with improved graphics.

Glowing dead at least makes sense because they are imbued with some sort of magical energy.
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ror6ax

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2362 on: October 17, 2020, 02:25:37 pm »

I actually do. Recently I had 3 kobold thieves pay me a visit in a fortress of 25-ish and I've spent a lot of time trying to make out where they are.
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Pillbo

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2363 on: October 17, 2020, 04:31:35 pm »

Well kobold thieves are supposed to be sneaking around, it fits that they aren't noticeable. Do you struggle in an invasion knowing who is the invader?
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Wokko

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2364 on: October 17, 2020, 05:45:58 pm »

I actually do. Recently I had 3 kobold thieves pay me a visit in a fortress of 25-ish and I've spent a lot of time trying to make out where they are.
That actually is a problem with all tilesets (and noticeable in other roguelikes too). It's hard to notice where the creatures are when the terrain gets busy, even though creature tiles are the most important, and should be the most visible on the screen. I'd really want Meph and Mayday to address it.

Well kobold thieves are supposed to be sneaking around, it fits that they aren't noticeable. Do you struggle in an invasion knowing who is the invader?
Their sneakiness is already represented as them being invisible before one of your dwarves notices them. Creatures should always be noticeable at a glance for the player.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2365 on: October 17, 2020, 06:20:03 pm »

I actually do. Recently I had 3 kobold thieves pay me a visit in a fortress of 25-ish and I've spent a lot of time trying to make out where they are.
That actually is a problem with all tilesets (and noticeable in other roguelikes too). It's hard to notice where the creatures are when the terrain gets busy, even though creature tiles are the most important, and should be the most visible on the screen. I'd really want Meph and Mayday to address it.

Well kobold thieves are supposed to be sneaking around, it fits that they aren't noticeable. Do you struggle in an invasion knowing who is the invader?
Their sneakiness is already represented as them being invisible before one of your dwarves notices them. Creatures should always be noticeable at a glance for the player.
Did we all just forget how to play the game in the excitement for pretty graphics? Just pick them from the list if you can't see them in your tileset for some reason.
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Schmaven

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2366 on: October 17, 2020, 06:48:30 pm »

I find the motion of living creatures in an un-paused games makes them stand out enough to be seen on the screen. 

I suppose it becomes a lot harder to tell when looking at screen shots though.
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Wokko

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2367 on: October 17, 2020, 07:49:34 pm »

Did we all just forget how to play the game in the excitement for pretty graphics? Just pick them from the list if you can't see them in your tileset for some reason.
That doesn't sound convincing. The graphics are both for those who know how to play, and who don't, so nobody here "forgot how to play".
And does that mean you disagree that creatures should be noticeable without using any lists?
Sounds like you prefer ascii, so don't try to apply ascii logic to graphics, using lists is not enjoyable, they require the player to pause gameplay just to get vital information.
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clinodev

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2368 on: October 17, 2020, 09:18:25 pm »


Did we all just forget how to play the game in the excitement for pretty graphics? Just pick them from the list if you can't see them in your tileset for some reason.

Right? Look at these casuals in here discussing graphics in the official graphics discussion thread!

Next thing you know, the devs will be wasting time making the game more playable for normies, ugh.

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Meph

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Re: Steam/Itch.io tileset - Mayday/Meph - Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #2369 on: October 18, 2020, 04:34:20 am »

Toady saw the suggestion and thinks a small color-coded something below the creature, with friendly/neutral/hostile would be a good idea. With an on/off button. ;)
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