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Author Topic: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)  (Read 15908 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2019, 04:41:40 am »

@Bumber: Down stair: Because you need to be able to dig a hole in a floor to be able to build a staircase below it (and reveal that hole, if previously unrevealed), and conversely, you need to build a floor with a hole in it to connect an open space to a surrounding floor. While the latter could possibly be implicit, the former cannot, as you need to see the space (and be able to access it) where you're going to build a stair, and there has to be some kind of result of digging a down stair into an open space (Never mind the magic hole in the floor resulting from a built up/down stair).

Edit: Fixed mistyping.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 06:41:01 am by PatrikLundell »
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Starver

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2019, 06:10:21 am »

The counterargument being what happens with ramps (ignoring their issues from dynamic semi-omnidirectionality╣), but these minor stumbling blocks (there's at least as much potential confusion in other games, through the necessity of implementing desired functionality - redstone circuits in Minecraft, etc) can be understood and worked with as intended very quickly.

Meh.


╣ Omnidirectionality because they serve any cardinal or semi-cardinal direction; semi- because of the need for an associated structures; dynamic because it adapts to changing surrounds without rebuilding.
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Bumber

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2019, 04:40:58 pm »

@Bumber: Down stair: Because you need to be able to dig a hole in a floor to be able to build a staircase below it (and reveal that hole, if previously unrevealed), and conversely, you need to build a floor with a hole in it to connect an open space to a surrounding floor. While the latter could possibly be implicit, the former cannot, as you need to see the space (and be able to access it) where you're going to build a stair, and there has to be some kind of result of digging a down stair into an open space (Never mind the magic hole in the floor resulting from a built up/down stair).

Edit: Fixed mistyping.
You'd have a "dig out floor" designation. In the first case, this would reveal the wall below (creating an implicit down stair / missing floor if the dug tile is below an up stair, else convert to up/down stair.) The second case is implicit from an up stair, as you noted. Digging a "down stair" into empty space would just remove the floor, unless standing on an up stair (which results in an up/down stair.)

Basically, they would still exist mechanically, but only as implicit from (up) stairs. Up/down stair designation would be reinterpreted as a shortcut to digging a stair and removing the floor. It also fixes all missing floor bugs above walls/fortifications, as they act as walkable implicit down stairs.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 04:44:19 pm by Bumber »
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Libash_Thunderhead

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2019, 02:12:28 am »

Problem is, if some bugs are still not fixed,  expect nagtive feedbacks.
For example, merchants get stuck and refuse to leave.
It is normal and easy to solve for vetran players, but not for new players.
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Schmaven

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2019, 03:34:41 am »

I think new players need to understand not only the differences between an alpha version of a game and a beta version, but also the fact that this one is still not even halfway into the alpha phase...
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Meph

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2019, 03:37:45 am »

I think new players need to understand not only the differences between an alpha version of a game and a beta version, but also the fact that this one is still not even halfway into the alpha phase...
Difficult if it's offered on Steam as a full title, instead of an early access game, which it technically is.
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wierd

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2019, 03:40:49 am »

I see it as "Look, Sexxy new graphics stack with better tileset underpinnings! ONLY 20$! Officially supported by developer!"

I see that and say, "yes please."
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PatrikLundell

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2019, 04:04:53 am »

@Bumber (sorry for the derail, everyone): One rather useful application of down stair digging is as part of an obsidianization process of the magma sea, as that prevents the miner from being pulled down by the water sloshing about (to obsidianize the magma below). Someone told me about this use when I had issues with using channeling. It works even better now that the diagonal access entry bug has been fixed.

Otherwise, I agree with Meph that DF would probably fare better if offered as a permanent "early access" game (with the extremely long, and probably permanent, early access duration stated clearly) on Steam, as it would probably temper expectations better than any marketing will.
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Libash_Thunderhead

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2019, 07:50:57 pm »

Agree. Unless they fixed those obvious problems, early access sounds more honest.
As for the graphics, I like them, but I think there are too many 2D games with good looking graphics nowadays, so df might not stand out for graphics. If I didn't know the game, just by looking at the icon I would think it is another mobile conversion dungeon whatever game. :-X
I know it is still being worked on, so I hope it looks more unique in the future.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 11:11:12 am by Libash_Thunderhead »
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corrosivechains

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2019, 09:30:58 pm »

I've gone and browsed the Steam subforum. It's mostly Ok (as much as I've seen so far) except for:

1) Silly things about the UI (key-powered menus are much more efficient to navigate than mouse-clicking a similarly nested menuing system, and for something with the complexity of choice like DF I'd stick to the keys, cheers), and,
2) Neonivek prominently displaying the chip on his shoulder, thus justifying the enforced exile he's complaining about.

Pretty much #2.  An inflammatory forum thread got moderated.  Your posts were deleted.  So were others.  It's happened to all of us, it's not personal.
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MantisMan

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2019, 10:08:06 pm »

I really dont think that what casual players want, can effectively be delivered, no matter how savvy you are with UI design.
This. I've read plenty of complaints (elsewhere on the internet, long before the itch.io and steam announcements) about the game being "too complicated" or too hard to get into. Some of them say that the articles in the wiki about engineering a well, for example, are too hard. The problem is that those articles are seriously about as easy to follow as you can get. The issue is that the engineering process itself is tricky.

There's some level of IQ gating that's going to make this game more inaccessible than most. Even for other complicated games like X3: Terran Conflict, you can at least say "It's a space game where you fly around and trade or fight. You can buy new ships, automate them, and even eventually make your own faction. You can do almost anything in it!". That gives that kind of game an easier elevator pitch, and it's closer to the kinds of experiences the average person can understand. I'm sure we all know that if someone can't understand what something is, that they'll get hostile about it and be the negative introduction for many other people.

This isn't the same kind of simplistic game that people are looking for. I think people's unjustified false expectations coming to grips with the reality of the game will cause a lot of damage.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2019, 04:21:01 am »

@Libash_Thunderhead: As far as I understand, the graphics overhaul isn't intended to reach a pinnacle of graphic awesomeness, but rather to raise the level to reach a minimum acceptable one for the many people who run screaming when character "graphics" are mentioned (although it seems a few bells and whistles are going to be added, but those are not things that would make DF unique, but rather approach the level found elsewhere). Thus, it will most certainly look similar to a lot of other minimum level games at a quick glance, ironically sacrificing the uniqueness of the character usage (this is said by a player who uses a tile set, not characters, so I'm not complaining personally). I think it would be good for the DF commercial version to allow for character "graphics" in addition to the tile sets as one of the "graphics" settings (but not the default one!). If nothing else, it provides something that sets the game apart, and as far as I understand, the functionality is going to be there anyway for the Classic version, so the effort ought to be minimal.
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Starver

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2019, 02:42:36 pm »

Peaked back at the Steam forum. Highly tempted to get whatever minimal access I need to respond there to correct missing information. You can already 'paint' designations with mouse-clicks (doesn't need a mod to do, and is by far the most useful use for a mouse in the game), you can save-scum Adventure mode (or post-worldgen, pre-newfort/adventure/legend) as well as Fortresses and I'd suggest auto embark/seasonal saves too,. Plus someone needs to tell those who are touching the subject of plant use that they might need to disallow seeds from cooking (until they're overflowing the stockpiles, at least) to avoid another pitfall.

But right now I can't actually tell anyone, that who shouldn't already have an idea about it.
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Bortness

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2019, 03:20:09 pm »

Peaked back at the Steam forum. Highly tempted to get whatever minimal access I need to respond there to correct missing information. You can already 'paint' designations with mouse-clicks (doesn't need a mod to do, and is by far the most useful use for a mouse in the game), you can save-scum Adventure mode (or post-worldgen, pre-newfort/adventure/legend) as well as Fortresses and I'd suggest auto embark/seasonal saves too,. Plus someone needs to tell those who are touching the subject of plant use that they might need to disallow seeds from cooking (until they're overflowing the stockpiles, at least) to avoid another pitfall.

But right now I can't actually tell anyone, that who shouldn't already have an idea about it.

Sometimes you just gotta let people suck.
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DizzyCrash

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Re: The Steam forum is already toxic (I love Bay12)
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2019, 04:13:47 pm »

Iv been DFing for nearly a decade now, mmaybe more... infact definitely more. But I for onee am excited for the steam community rush, sure some of the people will be assholes but that comes with any group that gets too large.
But i rmember DF back in its height when we had artists and modders working full time an pumping outt AMAZNG content and the community felt alive and vibrant... I was depressed lastt yeear when i realized that the community was sort of dieing and whithering and that the old vanguard were basically the only people left.

So I am looking forward to the new bloods and dont rally care if they can be sour pusses cause DF will spread like wild fire i know it.

Some point last year i remember this very hipstery comment on this forum when i mentioned bringing DF to steam and bringing in more people to the fold and the guy basically said "But if other people play it tha it wont be as special! The Dev doesnt want more people to play his game he only wants the turly dedicated!" To which I found ridiculous, of course they want a wide audience of people to enjoy there lifes work.
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