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Author Topic: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?  (Read 2444 times)

DizzyCrash

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2019, 05:39:44 pm »

Ah, no, that one was because alcohol was a tad bit too effective. And then stress was made a bit stronger, but now everyone's a total neurotic.

Well.. Honestly, now that iv played a game where veryone gets along i can verify that its boring, Neurotic is always better.

Though i probably wont pick the game up again untl the friendship bug is fixed cause i sort of really want to see my dwarves develope bonds and companions and friends. Apparently it wil be fixed with the vllains update so thats good.
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spazyak

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2019, 05:40:56 pm »

All my dwarves have been talking
They tend to talk too much.
Like durring siege instead of getting equipement, or fighting the goblins killing their wife.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2019, 05:42:49 pm »

Obvious question, but you're playing 44.12, right?
Try 44.10 when the new stress features first hit. It was even more out of control then.
What was out of control? Dwarves not talking to eachother?
Fights, arguments, people bashing each other over the head. Isn't that what your thread is about? People not talking to each other is increasing stress, not decreasing it.

The post is about how the last time i played DF ayear ago there was NO chaos and i missed it... There was never any arrests, fights, brawls, murders, nothing interesting ever happened, it was just everyone ignoring eachother and never talking or interactng in any meaningful ways. they barely recognized that the other dwarves existed.
My sheriff had nothing to do what so ever as nobody did anythiing wrong.
And what version was that?

You're having a completely different experience from everyone in that 30 page stress thread. Right now in my game a stressed 3 year old (Rain! Oh the misery)  is feeling triumph over starting a fistfight having already toppled my cage traps and traumatised the war dogs. I'm about to banish her family.

If the last time you played was several versions ago, then, yes, that was fixed. Try the latest version.

Edit
-- Friendship and stress will likely be addressed during the Villains release bug fixing phase. Not the initial release (fotf sometime ago).
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 05:44:52 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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DizzyCrash

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2019, 06:55:24 pm »

Last time i playeed? June of 2018... So about a year ago? almost?

so your sayng thaat now your dwarves have friennds beyond just the initial 7 friends you embark with?
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spazyak

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2019, 07:02:17 pm »

Yeah, I have had a few dwarves making some friends. So far it seems they usually just talk and discuss things in the tavern or library. I've also had a few enemies which will just randomly start beating each other up, even straight up killing each other.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2019, 10:04:43 pm »

Last time i playeed? June of 2018... So about a year ago? almost?

so your sayng thaat now your dwarves have friennds beyond just the initial 7 friends you embark with?
No, friends are currently not working properly (you can force people to make friends by locking them up together, but dwarves who pine for friendship refuse to go out and do anything about it proactively right now).

Stress is working though (too well). Regardless of whether your dwarves are talking to each other or not, in the latest version  (July, so that's possibly not what you were playing) will get stressed and kill each other. Luckily you can exile them now.

Friendship is being fixed as part of the overall toning down of stress come Villains (and it's subsequent bug fix patches).
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 10:07:07 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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wierd

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2019, 02:55:12 am »

(in regard to thread title)

I would say that YES, DF used to be much more chaotic, what with dwarves flying off the rails in tantrum spirals and loyalty cascades at the drop of a hat, killer carp, et al.  .40d was killer. 
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Libash_Thunderhead

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2019, 06:21:43 am »

I still enjoy reading the story of boatmurdered, after those years. :P
Chaotic=FUN?
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CaptainArchmage

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2019, 06:23:56 pm »

I remember DF as a chaotic experience. Dwarves killing themselves, beating eachother, bashing in heads with pick axes out of anger.
But last time i played... They never did anything really, no crimes, no mischief, no chaos. There was the usual fun stuff of invasions and death and all that but I felt like the dwarves themselves were just being very well behaved... My shariff didnt have much to do, no murdrers, vandals, thieves...

I wonder if theres something I can do to change that. Something i can adjust. Tweak a setting of somesort. Or if its all in my head and the dwarves are as manic as always.

There were one or two updates regarding dwarven psychology. In the old days, you could get a huge tantrum spiral and in general, to control it you had to have a lot of platinum statues and tables and thrones. It also made for great stories. Most of my activity with dwarf fortress was on DF2010 and to a lesser extent DF2012, and this is what happened. Back in the 23a and 40d days, it was apparently even worse because there was a broken economy that guaranteed someone would be upset for reasons that without it, would have been entirely avoidable.

I believe psychology came in two stages. The first stage, which brought in "dream of ...", effectively wiped out the issues of tantrum spirals and it became a huge task to even get riots for your dwarves. This came in the early days of DF2014, or versions of 0.40 and beyond. The second stage, a bit more recent, well, brought in memories.

This brought back tantrum spirals, but more importantly dwarves would occasionally dwell on bad thoughts. Some of these a short term memories but they can become long term memories, and there's like seven or eight long term memories a dwarf can have. This means if your dwarf grows up in or spends time in a shithole fortress, their bad memories will occasionally come back unless overwritten. For starting fortresses, some people have issues even with dwarves not having mugs or rooms in the first days of a fort's existence.

It's a different kind of crazy, but still crazy.

And you can have a lot of fun with it.
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NordicNooob

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2019, 10:04:14 am »

I feel this thread. I'm actually not having any stress related !!FUN!! in my forts. Sure, every once in a while I'll get Urist McRetchedOnAMiasmaIn201 who becomes super vulnerable to stress (normally in the form of 'constant state of internal rage'), and the eventual buildup of "lack of focus" thoughts are annoying, but really? The stress cases are individuals who have become maimed by personality change, not like, mass stress in the fort due to negligent management. My so far unbreakable trend is the general populace staying at normal stress and the military (who trains, non-stop) will slowly grow towards -100k. Even with a decade of iffy focus management, my forts have kept this trend up spare for a few individuals (like 5% of the population) who will get unlucky with their personality changes and go insane from even the slightest stressors.

The one time I've had a solid chunk of stressed dwarves was fairly recently, in a challenge fort, where they drunk water for nearly two years and had no bedrooms for almost as long. Shortly after, I stabilized the fort, and they're all heading towards ecstatic now.

I think that personality change and corpses should both become weaker, and that personal trauma (like getting attacked, having friend/family/pet die, and major injuries) should become more powerful to replace personality change as an 'individual case' kind of trauma.
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Iduno

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2019, 01:33:05 pm »

But you don't understand. I saw a TOOTH! *Garbles unintelligibly.*
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2019, 03:39:42 pm »

But you don't understand. I saw a TOOTH! *Garbles unintelligibly.*
Well, the half tooth issue has actually been toned down significantly and is probably on a reasonable level, so corpses and parts thereof may well the the stress thing that's actually balanced fairly well. Corpses are now of a varying scariness level depending on who they belonged to, and body parts similarly have varying scariness levels. Seeing the body of a dead invader is way less scary than seeing the body of your spouse, and a few teeth will affect only the most sensitive ones (even merchants are now able to pass over dead invaders without scuttling fairly often [and that's even the whole {or half} bodies, not just teeth]).
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schwartzhund

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Re: Did DF used to be more.. Chaotic?
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2019, 01:14:08 pm »

In regards to the OP's question, no. Huge obvious bugs notwithstanding, your playstyle has always had a much bigger impact on the wackiness level than the game features. I would say that all these years of development have gradually made the game operate less and less on video game logic (put a waterfall in your meeting hall and the happy thoughts will make it literally impossible for any dwarf to ever become sad!) and more and more on, if not realism per se, the internal logic of the world (regular civilians are traumatized and might even experience mental breakdowns if they're exposed to the horrors of war, but part of military training involves raising the Discipline skill which lets soldiers potentially fight to the death in defense of the fortress). Because there's more variety among dwarves, you could argue that it's actually more chaotic in a way, not in terms of slapstick violence breaking out because you accidentally melted someone's stack of masterwork bolts, but in terms of unexpected consequences for your actions, like if a soldier who becomes completely helpless in stressful situations freezes up at the wrong moment in battle. But even in terms of slapstick violence, you can now set up a tavern full of booze, goblets, and Tavern Keepers, give your dwarves nothing to do for a month or so, sit back, and watch your citizens pummel each other senseless and drink themselves to death.

I think a lot of the really silly stuff that happens in the game has always just been due to bugs that are bound to be fixed sooner or later, so if you're used to the glitches in older versions and then they get sorted out, it might seem like things have changed significantly.

As far as the stress system is concerned, I'd really like to see more effects from positive experiences, or any, really. At the moment becoming a parent is pretty much the only thing that seems to have a lasting impact on a dwarf's personality that doesn't involve tragedy, horror, losing their clothes, or being rained on. It would be nice if, for instance, dwarves in leadership positions could potentially use their leadership skills, assuming they're good enough at it, to permanently shore up the more troubled dwarves around the fortress, beyond just spamming Meetings endlessly to no effect. Or if making friends and being reunited with rescued loved ones permanently made them more cheerful or more resistant to stress or whatever. As it is, dwarves' thoughts seem to revolve mostly around seeing dead bodies and getting caught in the rain, and the effects seem more or less random; some dwarves become volatile time bombs waiting to go off at the slightest provocation, others get rained on one time and instantly fall in love with nature and become impervious to all stress forever. Positive thoughts currently don't seem to have any meaningful effect whatsoever--a dwarf can go from -1.0m stress to freaking out at the same rate as one who starts from -0 stress.
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