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Author Topic: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)  (Read 27380 times)

Micro102

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #135 on: July 18, 2021, 03:51:26 pm »

I just started playing this. As a dwarf warrior with no stealth skills, are traps ever worth it? Because I don't want them in my inventory.
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zorbus_overdose

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #136 on: July 18, 2021, 04:34:52 pm »

I just started playing this. As a dwarf warrior with no stealth skills, are traps ever worth it? Because I don't want them in my inventory.

You don't need stealth to use trapkits (disable-skill is used, and you don't need that many points). Just set them when no hostile creature can see you (on closed doors / lantern turned off / in the dark). If you are chased by many creatures, set up a confusion / summon elemental -trap to even the odds. You can store items in the hub level containers. If you feel that you don't want them, uncheck the setting "pick trapkits".
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Micro102

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #137 on: July 18, 2021, 05:07:48 pm »

Will me or my allies set off my own traps?
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zorbus_overdose

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #138 on: July 18, 2021, 06:14:51 pm »

Will me or my allies set off my own traps?

No, but you / they can't walk on a tile that has a trap. You can safely disable your own traps to regain the trapkit. You can also deliberately spring your own traps to trigger the effect.
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vjek

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #139 on: July 19, 2021, 12:35:20 am »

Hi. Saw this game a while back, and while I did play a bit, I never managed to get very far (sometimes I don't even make it out of the first room). Any tips in general for survival?

Read the gameplay tips from the book in the first room / from the game's PDF-manual.

Try playing with the (dwarf) Warrior-archetype.
Dwarves have darkvision. Use F1 to unlit lantern, unlit area light sources, hide in dark areas, preferably corners.
The starting weapon is a staff, so you can make reach-attacks against creatures one-step away.
Change the starting weapon when you find anything better.
Don't try to fight multiple enemies at once, backtrack so that they don't surround you.
You can close doors with Alt + direction. Most animals and undead can not open doors.
The Warrior-archetype has the Shield Bash -talent, so equipping a shield automatically adds a second attack.
Use Health Surge -talent when in low Health.
Use potions of Blink to escape.
Recruit companions. If you find a portal to the shop hub, enter it. There's a random chance that recruitable creatures are created there.

Alternatively, create a custom character and choose the Silver Spoon -talent. You'll start with a better starting weapon, 4 potions and 2 wands.
For some feedback, I tried the current version (whatever that is on July 18th, 2021, and followed many/most of the above recommendations (minus the Silver Spoon talent), and died 20/20 times before I could explore more than 50% of the first level.  Never saw level 2, not of the dungeon or my char.  Never saw a shield, either, in the entire 20 attempts, despite having the shield bash ability/talent.  Generally never saw an enemy easier than intimidating other than gibberlings.  More than half of them were "this can kill you in 4 rounds" when Examined.
Usually couldn't get more than a few tens of steps outside the first room, with the lantern off.  First combat, typically down to half health.  After two enemies find me, it's either blink potion or die.  Then try to heal, but more creatures find you hiding in the dark (trying to heal, not moving), and the inevitable death follows.
Generally speaking, it came down to this: 4-5 creatures would track me down and kill me, 100% of the time, regardless of any actions I took.  Usually a combination of undead, goblins, animals, and novice adventurers/thieves.  Tried to range, tried not.  Tried to tame, tried not.  Tried a variety of weapons, didn't matter.  Lantern on/off, didn't matter.
There was absolutely nowhere to hide, heal, or otherwise avoid combat under any circumstances.  If I moved/explored, eventually I died.  Enter a room, 5 enemies appear in a magical flash of light, dead.  Another time, teleport trap, dead.  Another time, despite having friend to animals, hostile animals killed me.  As a slightly variable death simulator, I give it two thumbs up. heheh.

I completely recognize how this genre of game is supposed to work, and I totally understand it's supposed to be extremely, punitively challenging, and part of the game is to die, often.  I totally get that, 100% behind that game design and philosophy.

However..  I can't really play the game, like this. :)  I mean, I really want to, I love Roguelikes but 99% guaranteed death on the first level isn't a game, for me, it's just.. you know.. being a glutton for punishment.
Also, I recognize I could create a custom pure melee character (and/or half-orc/half-troll) that would likely survive, and then be unable to use magic (well, or at all), as I've had to do in other very pure implementations of Roguelikes in the past.  Again, totally get that, and if that's the intended path to glory, everything is awesome.  But it would be nice to explore the other non-melee choices the game has to offer, from the start, if that's a design goal.
I understand the game has been available and tuned and balanced for at least 2 years, so if everything is working as intended, change nothing.  8)
Fantastic interface, very smooth UI, all very positive implementation details, overall.

Robsoie

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #140 on: July 19, 2021, 04:28:21 am »

The difficulty with roguelike is balancing the progression through the dungeon/world/map :
if the starting areas are too easy, after a dozen of characters it just gets boring.
if the start is consistently too hard, personnally i just stop playing the game and move to something else, my masochism level usually very quickly reach its limit nowadays.

After that there are some classes that are way better than other in surviving the starting areas, while some are better for the midgame, making it even more difficult to balance things.

Personnally i found my longer surviving character in zorbus have been the ones that could find an ally very quickly, other character when alone will die very quickly because it's extremely rare the enemy is alone and everyone seems to hit like a truck even at range so weak HP characters are getting killed even quicker.
Fortunately stealth with the low light is helpfull to run away in zorbus, until you run into infravision enemies and my character will get killed regardless of anything i try.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 04:31:45 am by Robsoie »
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vjek

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #141 on: July 19, 2021, 09:50:09 am »

Agreed, Robsoie.  At least I'm not alone in my experience.

In the current version of Zorbus, I found an ally (an ape) on one of the 20 failed initial attempts, and that was by far the one that lasted the longest.  It allowed me to reach I think 21% of the initial level/map explored.  However, same result, eventually..  Open a door, multiple enemies, try to hide/leave/run/fight (doesn't matter) and they all eventually catch up and it's 5 on 2 with the predictable outcome.  :D

Mkok

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #142 on: July 19, 2021, 10:10:32 am »

If you think floor 1 is difficult fear floor 2, that is in my opinion the most difficult one, as the ability to retreat to floor 1 has been removed in recent updates, but AFAIK no balance change to compensate was made yet. I think the problem with floor 1 is that you start with almost nothing, and so there is a big RNG factor involved with what you manage to find. At least for 2nd floor you can equip yourself with loot and some basic shopping, so if you play your hand correctly you have a decent chance of making it on floor 2.

Your starting equipment is quite weak, and I usually replace them with the the first weapon I find, bonus points if it has reach. At least until first level up you have to be very careful as your HP is very low and with a bit of bad RNG you can be two/three shotted from almost anyone (but you can use the potions in these cases, at least one/two times). It is important to be careful, not be afraid to run, pick enemies by one ideally. I think the easiest start is for mages with summon animals, as they essentially start with all they need (summoning animals is pretty strong on floor 1). Personally I also tend to die a lot on floor 1, but considering those runs end pretty much as soon as they begin they are not that much of a deal for me, as I usually make it after few trials. Sneaking around is useful if you want to find something, but it will often end up with you having no save ground to retreat to if enemies find you, which can be very deadly as you can be overrun quickly. Really helpful things to find are shop teleport (you can escape there, the monsters tend to follow, but they get killed quickly by friendly guards), animate switches (skeletons are a great help, especially early on), adventurers (they are near OP on 1st floor, if you cannot recruit them then you can at least lure enemies to them). I find it very important to have a save place to retreat to in order to heal. Other than that you must make use of all at your disposal (especially to get past floor 2).

I imagine one way to balance the start would be to allow us to "purchase" basic equipment prior to game start. Like a basic shield/weapon/armor, some potions, or a weak companion. If your dwarf were to start with a shield I think that would make a big impact. And the trait giving extra stuff might just allow you to purchase more/better stuff.
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Micro102

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #143 on: July 19, 2021, 10:16:02 am »

I've been able to occasionally reach the 3rd floor with the starter dwarf warrior and I can't help but compare it to DCSS. The lack of being able to stair dance combined with enemies running away from you makes me want to spend all my time in narrow hallways, slowly plucking away at enemy health with a ranged weapon. But that sounds like the most tedious thing I could be doing so I don't do it.
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Mkok

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #144 on: July 19, 2021, 10:34:46 am »

Enemies running away should be possible to turn off in the settings. What really helps against these is to have reach, or at least a semi-decent ranged weapon is the other slot. Or you can possibly just let them run away, they might get killed on their own somewhere and you will still get the exp. Personally on my hard-hitting troll run I had a reach weapon, so whenever they tried to run I would still get one more attack that would often finish them of, and if not then I would just switch over to ranged. Only from time to time would they be able to run away, unless they had blink, in which case they should run out of mana pretty fast (except some of the gods), and there is anchoring. Being fast is also quite useful, there are some skills giving you temporary speed as well, plus if you lucky you can find items with speed bonus.
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Micro102

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #145 on: July 21, 2021, 11:30:21 pm »

Is there a better way to control your allies other than the regroup/follow/stay commands? I'd like my archer to skirmish with the enemies like those same enemies do, or move sideways so they can get a clear shot rather than step closer and still not have a shot.
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Nopenope

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #146 on: July 22, 2021, 06:10:09 am »

I don't understand why people recommend melee characters. Try a pure spellcasting build with 18 mind that starts with two talents (Blink and Summon Animals) and keep spamming those spells. You will see the first few levels of the dungeon will be much easier. Later on you can learn Acid Cloud to take down enemies (especially wizards) from a distance and Holy Burst when you're getting swarmed.  Alternatively you can try starting with the Animal Friend talent and attempt to recruit an elephant. Few enemies can take down a pack of elephants and certainly not above level 5.

Talents are so useful I can't possibly start with Mind less than 18. Well maybe 16 if you don't intend to spellcast much beyond Blink but it's hard to justify going any lower.
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zorbus_overdose

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #147 on: July 22, 2021, 08:55:24 am »

Is there a better way to control your allies other than the regroup/follow/stay commands? I'd like my archer to skirmish with the enemies like those same enemies do, or move sideways so they can get a clear shot rather than step closer and still not have a shot.
Not really. You can set them to target a specific creature, or use those commands. The ranged attack AI routines for allies / enemies are the same, trying to move to a position that gets them a clear line of fire, but at the same time allies try to stay somewhat close to you and keep enough distance to enemies. When seeing the game in play, it's easy to say "he should move there and shoot from there" and so on, maybe even implement that, but that implementation might not work so nicely in another scenario with different map layout, different amount of enemies, etc. It's a very difficult subject.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 09:01:56 am by zorbus_overdose »
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Micro102

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #148 on: July 22, 2021, 02:10:55 pm »

I think a "go here" command would suffice, because it could be used along with the "stay" command. If I want to set up an ambush, I have to basically drag my guys over to the spots I want them.
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zorbus_overdose

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Re: Zorbus (D&D inspired roguelike)
« Reply #149 on: July 22, 2021, 02:40:45 pm »

I think a "go here" command would suffice, because it could be used along with the "stay" command. If I want to set up an ambush, I have to basically drag my guys over to the spots I want them.
You can do that. From the examine- (TAB) or autopilot (P) -screens, select a wanted location with the cursor, then (CONTROL) + (1) ... (9) to command companion 1 - 9 to travel there, then stay at that spot. (CONTROL) + (0) to command all.
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