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[Clatch]

To be frank, I've been on hiatus and totally missed the "Myth and Magic" update announcement.  The idea that the next big update is a quality of life one is pretty exciting!

However, I am a little perplexed on the new theme title?  I don't mind the flaming, but hear me out first.

It's been discussed several times about implementing a magic system.  I've always thought that the implementation of such a system would ruin the DF experience.  I can't even imagine what would happen at world creation with "spells" in the mix.  I've always been endeared to DF because it is the only game out there that portrays a true Tolkienesk world, where magic is inherently evil and the destroyer everything good (i.e. quantitative easing). Tolkien himself was a veteran -- which, undeniably made a huge influence on the world he created. 

Currently in DF all the magic-based tropes and borrowed similarities (e.i. necromancy, vampires and were creatures) are tied to opposing, evil forces.  The reason these tropes are so old in literature is because of the psychological symbology these traits imbue.  These real political and social-economical forces are great enough without the addition of the fantastical.  Isn't myth derived from the "master works" that are erected in the face of these overwhelming odds?  Those struggles in humanity was the foundation of Tolkein's world!

In that respect, I propose Myth and Beer -- or Myth and Metal.

[Bumber]

You'll probably be able to configure your world so that only evil magic exists.

The default experience will probably be more like irresponsible use of magic is dangerous. An example given was a fire-based spell/artifact that draws your fort closer to the plane of fire. It starts with small warning signs and ends with spontaneous !!FUN!! where your fort used to be.

[TD1]

Tolkien did not write worlds in which magic was evil, just in which it was fading. Galadriel, Gandalf and so on used what we would consider magic - but it was not evil.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Yes, the point of Mythgen is to make procedurally generated Lore to ensure every single world created is unique, as opposed to the generic Tolkien (plus flair) worlds that we have at the moment. I suggest you watch the video from GDC (probably in the links section) to see what the release is actually about. It's not an "add spells" patch.

https://youtu.be/49b7fUI7AEI

(This isn't a suggestions thread by the way, besides "scrap the plans for Dwarf Fortress").

[Clatch]

Yes, the point of Mythgen is to make procedurally generated Lore to ensure every single world created is unique, as opposed to the generic Tolkien (plus flair) worlds that we have at the moment.

When I refer to Tokienesk, please understand that I'm not referring to content.  I'm not alluding that DF is in any way borrowing elements from that world.  I understand that would minimize Toady's work.  I'm only referring to the philosophical elements that made it a compelling and real environment -- of which DF does well. 

I'm happy to hear that spells aren't being introduced in the patch -- but that is what the connotation of "Magic" gives me -- sorry.  Toady has mentioned further developing a magic system in the past during radio presentations and such.  Although I watched that video you linked a few years ago, I'll check it out again and try to figure out what you're referring to exactly.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Yes, the point of Mythgen is to make procedurally generated Lore to ensure every single world created is unique, as opposed to the generic Tolkien (plus flair) worlds that we have at the moment.

When I refer to Tokienesk, please understand that I'm not referring to content.  I'm not alluding that DF is in any way borrowing elements from that world.  I understand that would minimize Toady's work.  I'm only referring to the philosophical elements that made it a compelling and real environment -- of which DF does well. 

I'm happy to hear that spells aren't being introduced in the patch -- but that is what the connotation of "Magic" gives me -- sorry.  Toady has mentioned further developing a magic system in the past during radio presentations and such.  Although I watched that video you linked a few years ago, I'll check it out again and try to figure out what you're referring to exactly.

It's not just an add spells patch. It's a major rewrite that will no doubt include "spells" as part of the development. There will be more magic besides necromancy for a start. With reasons why everything is as it is. But, as mentioned, all as customizable as possible. So you can probably remove anything positive.

Change is also a big feature. Magic dies out (Tolkien), comes back (some other literature) and can be effected by villains and adventurers.

[Clatch]

Change is also a big feature. Magic dies out (Tolkien), comes back (some other literature) and can be effected by villains and adventurers.

As I mentioned, I'm really excited to see the quality of life upgrades.  Those in themselves will be quite a feat to tackle during a year or two year development cycle.  Adding spells and such will change the world drastically and create even more of a workload for new tileset and sound updates.  I guess I'm having a hard time understanding it.   I've pretty much stated my thoughts on the matter though and don't intend to delve into any further.  I'm just curious what the general consensus was.

I understand that there are many here looking forward to more variety.  Anytime you introduce gluttony and instant gratification elements (such as spells are), the story line seems to suffer.  The physics become less real and Toady has done an amazing job developing that.  I'd just hate to see all that work thrown under the bus, because some people want the experience to be more familiar.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Change is also a big feature. Magic dies out (Tolkien), comes back (some other literature) and can be effected by villains and adventurers.

As I mentioned, I'm really excited to see the quality of life upgrades.  Those in themselves will be quite a feat to tackle during a year or two year development cycle.  Adding spells and such will change the world drastically and create even more of a workload for new tileset and sound updates.  I guess I'm having a hard time understanding it.   I've pretty much stated my thoughts on the matter though and don't intend to delve into any further.  I'm just curious what the general consensus was.

I understand that there are many here looking forward to more variety.  Anytime you introduce gluttony and instant gratification elements (such as spells are), the story line seems to suffer.  The physics become less real and Toady has done an amazing job developing that.  I'd just hate to see all that work thrown under the bus, because some people want the experience to be more familiar.

All of this isn't starting until after Steam release is out and stable
Likely to take 2-3 years. That's why it's called the Big Wait.
(There's map rewrite being thrown in there too, which will take a while).

This will be really, really unfamiliar. Sliders will allow you to adjust how far out you want your world to be. Most random will be pure fantasy with randomly generated races and no Tolkien derivatives at all (including dwarves). Least Fantasy setting will have humans and fake mythology to drive their religions. And everything in between.

You might get "instant gratification fireballs" if the rng gods are on your side. Most likely you'll get "panicked dwarves can turn themselves into buckets, at the cost of half their lifespan".

[KittyTac]

As Shonai said, you could set "Magic Prevalence" to "Low" for pretty much the current amount of it. Or both "Magic Prevalence" and "Magic Weirdness" to "Very High" for complete and utter chaos.

[GoblinCookie]

As Shonai said, you could set "Magic Prevalence" to "Low" for pretty much the current amount of it. Or both "Magic Prevalence" and "Magic Weirdness" to "Very High" for complete and utter chaos.

To be fair the OP does seem to proposing that we be able to have magic, just evil magic.  So simply getting rid of magic does not really cut it.

[Shonai_Dweller]

As Shonai said, you could set "Magic Prevalence" to "Low" for pretty much the current amount of it. Or both "Magic Prevalence" and "Magic Weirdness" to "Very High" for complete and utter chaos.

To be fair the OP does seem to proposing that we be able to have magic, just evil magic.  So simply getting rid of magic does not really cut it.

A fixed world editor is also part of MythGen releases. There you can have any type of world you like to very exact specifications.
The standard will be to procedurally generate systems though, which may end up with all evil magic worlds (or worlds that once had good magic, but Villains have messed things up).

I imagine you'll be able to control the balance of magic between "good" and "evil" races through modding though, spheres will presumably be influential.
Of course, Dwarves may be "evil" in some worlds too, I guess.

Anyhow, all speculation. Good to have this kind of opinion in the Suggestions forum though. It's not something which comes up often.

[PlumpHelmetMan]

Either way, you'll be perfectly able to create the kind of Tolkienesque world you want. Not sure why you'd want to deny others the freedom to create the kind of fantasy world they prefer just because you want things a particular way (and again, you'll be able to create your world that way if you want).

Not saying that's the impression you intended to give, just a warning that it's pretty easy to read that interpretation into the OP.

[therahedwig]

I'm pretty sure most of the current DF magic is evil because the evil bits are easiest to program. There's been talk about Elf magic for years, but no implementation thereof because it involves terrain modification... Modeling zombies is pretty easy in comparison.

It's also, there's been talk about introducing more procedural stuff into the game, among which that you won't always be playing with Dwarves(multi-race forts are already easily possible right now).

I'm personally kind of excited about 'Princess Mononoke' style worlds/stories, or exploring haunted houses with my adventurer, or creating Hogwarts, or just climbing a world tree

[Iduno]

It's been discussed several times about implementing a magic system.  I've always thought that the implementation of such a system would ruin the DF experience.  I can't even imagine what would happen at world creation with "spells" in the mix. 

Could be. We'll find out, and Toady has removed things before that were a problem (partially implemented economy).

I've always been endeared to DF because it is the only game out there that portrays a true Tolkienesk world, where magic is inherently evil and the destroyer everything good (i.e. quantitative easing). Tolkien himself was a veteran -- which, undeniably made a huge influence on the world he created.

Oh, I thought you were talking about J.R.R Tolkein, who wrote about the good in the world (magic) being corrupted by what he saw as evil (technology, racial inter-marriage, progress in general). Probably off his nut, but he wrote some stories that could have been good if they were shorter. Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).

[Manveru Taurënér]

Oh, I thought you were talking about J.R.R Tolkein, who wrote about the good in the world (magic) being corrupted by what he saw as evil (technology, racial inter-marriage, progress in general). Probably off his nut, but he wrote some stories that could have been good if they were shorter. Magic being an evil force like you're thinking sounds like someone else (who is probably just as bad).

o.O Have you actually read anything of Tolkien's? Sure he equated the destructiveness of industry and how it ruins nature with evil to some extent (which one may or may not agree with, I don't see what's wrong with it personally), but racial inter-marriage being shown as evil, what? The story of Beren and Luthien if anything shows the opposite, with Thingol who is quite racist as first comes around when Beren proves to him that humans aren't a lesser people as he'd thought. Not sure if you mean the people of Númenor who after mingling with the people back on middle-earth lost their longevity, but that wasn't really an inter-racial thing either as the people they mingled with were of the same "race", just not of those who sailed off to Númenor and were blessed by the Valar, and the issue is more shown to be the attitude of those who percieve themselves as better. One might argue there were some slight racism with how most of the "easterners" sided with evil, but some of them were shown to be honorable as well and there wasn't a lack of evil men in all the other groups either. Don't really agree with the magic bit either, I'd say he makes it pretty clear that it's not magic that is evil but how you use it, but bit much to go into all of that.