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Author Topic: Why "Myth and Magic"?  (Read 6748 times)

Egan_BW

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Re: Why "Myth and Magic"?
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2019, 10:57:32 am »

I look forwards to seeing how far history can go from earth-style history when we throw in absolute bullshit physics aka magic. What does happen when any dwarf can turn into a bucket and any goblin can explode into a fireball when they get too horny? Ideally, myths will vary and make magic vary which in turn will make history really vary.

Remember, DF isn't a world. DF is a world generator. The more different and off-the-wall bonkers the worlds it can make, the better it'll be at its job.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Why "Myth and Magic"?
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2019, 06:11:50 am »

I mean yeah, it certainly has racist themes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his works are racist. Some people seem to not agree with that as far as fiction goes, but imo it's whether racism is portrayed as a good thing or not that matters. Racism and superiority is constantly shown to be a bad thing rather, the gift given to the Númenorians clearly being a mistake which leads to their corruption and downfall, and continuing to cause issues in middle-earth as well, keeping those apart who should have stood united against evil. The kin-strife in Gondor for example caused by the current king being percieved as a half-breed (his mother being one of the Northmen), leading to great losses before the cruel usurpers are eventually expelled (fear of mingling thus causing way greater damage to their civilization than the mingling ever would), paving the way for Saurons return as the Gondorians no longer had the strength to keep watch on the borders of Mordor. Sure, there was technically a "superior race", but more often than not it was shown to be a bad thing overall, Aragorn being an exception more than anything else (he had some skill in healing "magic" btw, which is probably the only direct form of magic shown by any humans in the stories).

Pretty off topic though so yeah, I've said my piece, feel free to disagree as I'm sure you will ^^

The issue here is the difference between being good and being superior.  If you depict some of your racially superior beings as evil that does not change the fact that you are still maintaining the general hierarchy. 

In the first chapter of Fellowship, Bilbo hands out magical toys as birthday presents; were those 'good' toys or 'bad' toys?

Or were they just technological?

For a big, splashy example: Aragorn summons and commands an army of the Dead to save Middle-earth from the forces of evil.

The army of the dead are evil and Aragorn did not create them.  They existed because they were cursed traitors/cowards and the result of Aragorn's turning them to the good and redeeming them is that they go away. 

Yes, it is simple to the point of reductio ad absurdum. The entire point of Tolkien's world is that magic is in decline - and this ushers in a new age. The elves are in decline, Gondor is in decline, and the Age which is being ushered in is the Age of Men - not the Numenor. As the old fades, the new grows. The weakness of Gondor leads to the growing strength of Rohan, the barbaric horsemen who are racially inferior to the Gondorians... and who are nonetheless as noble, arguably more noble, and just as valuable as the Gondorians.

To give a speculum (mirror) - Bilbo and Frodo, Merry, Pippin, all these key characters are racially inferior in every way. And they are the strongest characters in all the ways that matter.

I repeat, you can reduce a work as vast and nuanced as Tolkien's to simplistic themes, but do so at your own peril.

The actual story does not dwell very much on the higher-men lower-men situation, except vaguely with Aragorn and even then his political rival Denethor is also Numenorean as well.  It is very much hidden in the backstory, except in the few cases it is referenced in the story (did Elrond talk about the blood of Numenor being spent in the books or just in the films?)

The passing of ages is not being depicted as an advancement but as a degeneration on what came before. 

Lewis had magic-users both good (Aslan, a direct stand-in for God), evil (the White Witch, as well as the Calormen god who is a less-clear parallel for Allah), and neutral (the human Earth magician who created magic rings allowing interplanar travel). I can't recall any instances of magic being used for Good purposes except by Aslan, though, so Lewis was probably echoing the common theme of "all magic that does not come from God is inherently evil" that was even more ubiquitous then than it is now.

Aslan isn't human and doesn't use magic, but more simply *is* magical and inhuman.  The White Witch is very much evil and uses magic extensively, not sure if she's human but the good side does not use their own magic in the sense of fireballs and lightning bolts to counter her explicit magical ability to turn people to stone. 

And Galadriel, and Elrond, and Saruman (important to emphasize that he was Good for 99.9% of his career, we saw only his downfall), and almost certainly the other Istari as well. Tom Bombadil is most likely of Neutral alignment, although his magical acts that we witness are indeed Good (or at least anti-Evil).

True, but none of those were human.

The Fellowship visits the hilltop seat of Amon Hen, a stone throne built & enchanted by men of Gondor. While sitting in the chair, Frodo is able to see places & events at great distances; Amon Hen is essentially a high-powered magical telescope. On the other side of the river stands another hilltop throne, its twin of Amon Lhaw, which does exactly the same thing, but with sound instead of light. A magical high-powered directional microphone. While these artifacts are admittedly not inherently Good, they are at least defensive: Placed just inside Gondor's border to detect approaching threats. Such magical technology could almost certainly have been deployed in a more offensive/intrusive position, but they chose to keep it in their own backyard.

No, they don't use the seeing stones anymore because to do so is wrong and will lead to them being corrupted by Sauron.  As happens with Saruman.  So the seeing stones are evil, but in a more subtle way that appears to be neutral and eventually the good side learns this is so and abandons the use of them. 

1. The reason for Numenorean superiority is very relevant: They were granted longer lifespans by Illuvatar, and taught various arts by the Elves of Valinor. In other words, their superiority was not innate, it was a gift--a gift which, incidentally, the Numenoreans had done little or nothing to earn.
2. The only thing "biological" about their superiority is their lifespan, and even that's not much of a hard wall. Sure, you could say, "the less-cultured Men couldn't learn magic because it takes like 50 years of practice to be able to cast even a simple spell," but of course the flip side of that is "the Numenoreans didn't learn magic because nobody wanted to waste 50 years of their life, so they all got real jobs instead."
3. The declines of Gondor and Arnor weren't caused by intermarrying with the locals, they were caused by poor structural & military decisions. Earnur Last-King of Gondor rode away to deal with an invasion of Easterlings without leaving an heir at home, and the king of Arnor split his realm into three to divide between his sons--the resulting smaller kingdoms were nationalist & didn't have each others' backs, enabling the Witch-king of Angmar to defeat them one at a time.

1. I said it is irrelevant because the important thing is that their superiority is innate *now* not that it was originally a gift.  Their superiority is hereditary and passed down and just like the superiority of white people in racism is also threatened by interbreeding with the lesser kinds of human.

2. There is also the 'ruling' part, they don't lose their authority over the lesser men because they simply did but because they interbred with lesser men and hence degenerated.  The remaining pure Numenoreans (like Aragorn and Denethor) are still recognised as the rightful rulers by Gondor. 

3. That is probably the true reason, but this is not the given reason in the text; so their bad decisions are plausibly the result of their blood being corrupted by lesser men.  Tolkien does not challenge the racist logic he created, he rather sidelines it by making the Numenoreans less than relevant to the present day. 
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Why "Myth and Magic"?
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2019, 10:09:24 am »

Amon Hen and Amon Rhaw are not seats of the Palantir, they're just an unspecified old magic of gondor. The reason that they're abandoned is because gondor withdrew from that area due to being unable to support settlements that far out any longer.

Also the Palantir are only dangerous if you use them to look at Mordor apparently (Which both Denethor and Saruman explicitly did iirc), because Gildor (The elf Frodo meets in the Shire) is on his way to the White Towers to gaze at the stars with the Palantir there.
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Clatch

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Re: Why "Myth and Magic"?
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2019, 07:23:25 pm »

Magic = Identity Politics? k

Any new concept introduced that isn't generated from hard work and relentless ingenuity is magic. 

As an example, the philosophical discussion Tolkien introduces is kin to the Federal Reserve.  That is, where wealth is generated from speech and public perception rather than tangible assets.  For me, Smaug was more frightening than Sauron - if only for the reason that the wealth he accumulated was real - so was the devastation he left behind. 

Sauron's sphere of influence had to be entered into by the protagonists.  The more it was used, possession occurred.  Rather than an outward manifestation by tangible works, it was more about the war over the human spirit.  Those who dealt in the unnatural were under its influence and the practitioners certainly weren't necessarily happier because of it.  Even Gandalf expressed trepidation over the use of magic.

I.E.  The Hobbit was cool.  The Lord of the Rings trilogy felt more like a soap opera.

Quote from: GoblinCookie
No, they don't use the seeing stones anymore because to do so is wrong and will lead to them being corrupted by Sauron.  As happens with Saruman.  So the seeing stones are evil, but in a more subtle way that appears to be neutral and eventually the good side learns this is so and abandons the use of them. 

Right!  That seemed completely obvious to me too.  When the D&D crap gets dumped into the DF universe, my argument isn't necessarily so much about the argument over good vs evil -- it's more about the thrill kill.  Wouldn't you want that kind of precious development time being spent on the tangible DF universe and the politics that are currently shaping it?  Dumping magic into the mix will reshape this universe so badly, no amount of bug-fixing or leveling stool legs will fix it.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 07:27:26 pm by Clatch »
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Loci

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Re: Why "Myth and Magic"?
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2019, 09:33:47 pm »

In the first chapter of Fellowship, Bilbo hands out magical toys as birthday presents; were those 'good' toys or 'bad' toys?

Or were they just technological?

Quote from: Tolkien
There were toys the like of which they had never seen before, all beautiful and some obviously magical.



For a big, splashy example: Aragorn summons and commands an army of the Dead to save Middle-earth from the forces of evil.

The army of the dead are evil and Aragorn did not create them.  They existed because they were cursed traitors/cowards and the result of Aragorn's turning them to the good and redeeming them is that they go away. 

Summoning and commanding the dead is considered magic in Dwarf Fortress and pretty much every fantasy world, except, apparently, your own.



No, they don't use the seeing stones anymore because to do so is wrong and will lead to them being corrupted by Sauron.  As happens with Saruman.  So the seeing stones are evil, but in a more subtle way that appears to be neutral and eventually the good side learns this is so and abandons the use of them.

Quote from: Tolkien
‘A struggle somewhat grimmer for my part than the battle of the Hornburg,’ answered Aragorn. ‘I have looked in the Stone of Orthanc, my friends.’

‘You have looked in that accursed stone of wizardry!’ exclaimed Gimli with fear and astonishment in his face. ‘Did you say aught to - him? Even Gandalf feared that encounter.’

‘You forget to whom you speak,’ said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. ‘Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? What do you fear that I should say to him? Nay, Gimli,’ he said in a softer voice, and the grimness left his face, and he looked like one who has laboured in sleepless pain for many nights. ‘Nay, my friends, I and the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely.’

He drew a deep breath. ‘It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise than you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not till now. The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Théoden; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur and the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his great designs the heir of Isildur and the Sword are revealed; for l showed the blade re-forged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.’

‘But he wields great dominion, nonetheless,’ said Gimli; ‘and now he will strike more swiftly.’

‘The hasty stroke goes oft astray,’ said Aragorn. ‘We must press our Enemy, and no longer wait upon him for the move. See my friends, when I had mastered the Stone, I learned many things. A grave peril I saw coming unlooked-for upon Gondor from the South that will draw off great strength from the defence of Minas Tirith. If it is not countered swiftly, I deem that the City will be lost ere ten days be gone.’

Aragorn uses the "Stone of Orthanc" (palantír) to learn of and thwart Sauron's attack, ultimately saving Minas Tirith and Middle-earth. That he does so in direct opposition to Sauron's corrupting influence pretty clearly disproves both your "magic is inherently evil" and your "human's can't use magic" hypotheses.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Why "Myth and Magic"?
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2019, 09:41:43 pm »

It's odd to see people lament Toady following his own design goals, which have been public IIRC since the project became public, saying that this will ruin the established feel of DF's world. Because the world of DF as we know it is mostly placeholder, a generic stand-in that will last until the fantasy world can be turned into a fantasy world generator.

If you prefer the placeholder version to the real thing, I honestly think you're following the wrong game.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Why "Myth and Magic"?
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2019, 10:27:51 pm »

It's odd to see people lament Toady following his own design goals, which have been public IIRC since the project became public, saying that this will ruin the established feel of DF's world. Because the world of DF as we know it is mostly placeholder, a generic stand-in that will last until the fantasy world can be turned into a fantasy world generator.

If you prefer the placeholder version to the real thing, I honestly think you're following the wrong game.
Toady: I'm gonna create a supremely complex simulation that will procedurally generate any kind of fantasy world you can possibly imagine and have players take part and find their own stories. Imagine, an entire library of cheap, obscure fantasy novels in which YOU are the hero of every single one. It's gonna be awesome.

Voice of dissent: And you'll exclude the ones which have magic, right?

Toady: Well, sure, isn't that implied?

...
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Craftsdwarf boi

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Re: Why "Myth and Magic"?
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2019, 08:41:09 am »

I personally do believe magic needs to be mitigated (NOT having 95% of the world population become DnD style wizards unless one wishes to) , rigorous (Is coherent to history and is modelled to certain physical laws) and unique (unexpected !!FUN!!, Randomly generated systems)
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PlumpHelmetMan

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Re: Why "Myth and Magic"?
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2019, 04:09:20 pm »

Toady has promised sliders for magic, so that seems to be a given (at least as I understand it).

Again, the gist of it is that Tolkienesque worlds will be possible for those who want them, so I'm still not sure why anyone's complaining.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 04:56:25 pm by PlumpHelmetMan »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Why "Myth and Magic"?
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2019, 11:00:27 pm »

Toady has promised sliders for magic, so that seems to be a given (at least as I understand it).

Again, the gist of it is that Tolkienesque worlds will be possible for those who want them, so I'm still not sure why anyone's complaining.
It's perfectly understandable for people to be worried. It's the reason Toady went to great lengths to explain how he's making a fundamentally new world simulation to ensure all magic makes sense (to the inhabitants, not to us) and is adjustable. Procgen Lore as opposed to "adding spells" and all the fireball-dorf shenanigans that implies.
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