Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: diverse migrants  (Read 2356 times)

JadeToad

  • Bay Watcher
  • Shells and rocks are cool!
    • View Profile
diverse migrants
« on: May 14, 2019, 07:17:44 am »

instead of having only dwarves migrate to your fortress, How about an assortment of different races like elves, animal people, humans and maybe even goblins to appear in migrant waves?
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2019, 07:43:00 am »

It's been raised before in Future of the Fortress. Will happen. Not yet.
Migrants will be revamped during the law/society arc.

Of course, they'd still have to be part of your civ. So the majority would still be dwarves.
Logged

DerMeister

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2019, 08:15:53 am »

You have scouts of another races. Why you want more?
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2019, 08:18:41 am »

You have scouts of another races. Why you want more?
Civilizations in dwarf fortress are made up of many different races (take a look at Legends sometime). The current system being hard-coded for dwarves doesn't actually make sense. Which is why at some point it's going to have to change.
Logged

FantasticDorf

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2019, 04:25:03 pm »

Introduction of religious migrations (earlier devlogs for this arc when doing the guild/merchant/mercenary/prophet stuff) may incentivise diverse migrants after you create a specific temple for someone of a non-dwarven faith or touching a particular shared faith topic.

How this stretches or how it'd be applied i dont know, maybe the temple could offer sanctuary as a traveller/wanderer requirement, they sit in your temple doing nothing hiding from whatever and whoever is chasing them then you get a fast citizenship petition. Perhaps a angry adventurer band could waltz in asking questions whether dwarves have seen this person and charge in to try and attack them for whatever they were accused of. It'd be a neat little interaction
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 04:30:43 pm by FantasticDorf »
Logged

GoblinCookie

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2019, 10:20:25 am »

An issue here is that a lot of our migrants did not exist before they migrated to our fortress.  Historical characters have races, so we could have historical migrants from other races but in order to have made-up characters we would need some kind of census beforehand to have them arrive in the correct proportion.
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2019, 02:49:43 pm »

An issue here is that a lot of our migrants did not exist before they migrated to our fortress.  Historical characters have races, so we could have historical migrants from other races but in order to have made-up characters we would need some kind of census beforehand to have them arrive in the correct proportion.
Populations tracking already exist. The game knows what the elven population of a dwarf civ is. No-one is "made up" except perhaps the starting 7 and some of the first migrant wave if required (which it isn't).
Logged

GoblinCookie

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2019, 06:53:36 am »

Populations tracking already exist. The game knows what the elven population of a dwarf civ is. No-one is "made up" except perhaps the starting 7 and some of the first migrant wave if required (which it isn't).

You could not be more wrong.  You can create a fortress of an extinct civilization and you will get endless waves of immigrants all the same.  The same principle applies to AI sites, their non-historical populations are also made up to repopulate their numbers.

The game 'knows', but a algorithm would still need to be written to control the made up immigrant raical proportion. 
Logged

KittyTac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Impending Catsplosion. [PREFSTRING:aloofness]
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2019, 08:19:22 am »

Populations tracking already exist. The game knows what the elven population of a dwarf civ is. No-one is "made up" except perhaps the starting 7 and some of the first migrant wave if required (which it isn't).

You could not be more wrong.  You can create a fortress of an extinct civilization and you will get endless waves of immigrants all the same.  The same principle applies to AI sites, their non-historical populations are also made up to repopulate their numbers.

The game 'knows', but a algorithm would still need to be written to control the made up immigrant raical proportion.
Actually, I am pretty sure you only get the starting 2 or so waves if you start on an extinct civ. And I have wiped out a city in adventure mode once, so they don't always repopulate, at least. This might be recent, though...
Logged
Don't trust this toaster that much, it could be a villain in disguise.
Did you know that cats that have mysteriously disappeared from home can come back after a few months without warning?

GoblinCookie

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2019, 10:13:14 am »

Actually, I am pretty sure you only get the starting 2 or so waves if you start on an extinct civ. And I have wiped out a city in adventure mode once, so they don't always repopulate, at least. This might be recent, though...

In adventure mode the city is abandoned once you wipe out all historical characters and all non-historical characters.  If you wipe out only the former, new historical characters will be promoted from historical characters until no non-historical characters are left but the population will not respawn until this happens.  The non-historical characters are set to a ratio with their historical counterparts, taking their racial information (in both senses) from the historical characters.  It is even more complicated in that the total population is capped by an economy-based soft-cap and a usually larger strict hard cap based upon site type.

So to wipe out a site you have to kill everyone before the game promotes new historical characters because without historical characters it cannot make new non-historical characters, but if you kill only the non-historical characters and leave any of the historical ones alive, new non-historical characters will spawn forever.  The non-historical characters have block data values which can be used to create new historical characters from nowhere, this is the reason that genetic diversity tends to be so low in the game, historical characters make populations and populations make more historical characters. 

On the question of immigrants, yes it does make immigrants up out of thin air and there isn't any point at which you start getting new immigrants just because your civilization or race is extinct; I say this because I've done this.  What you won't get however is historical characters, or rather beings that were historical characters before they migrated to our fortress (all player fortress character are historical).  There are three groups of characters in the game, the established historical characters, the newly minted historical characters and the non-historical characters.  Speaking to a non-historical character promotes them into a newly minted historical character.

That is why having immigrants of other races is not so easy as you'd think.  The game takes some historical characters of your race from other sites in the world that belong to your civilization (not just the sites that belong to your civilization) and teleports them to your fortress.  Then it conjures into existance a number of newly minted historical characters based upon your civilizations racial info.  Since you always have dwarves in your fortress, there is always going to be historical character info to create new immigrants. 
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2019, 05:52:38 pm »

Ok.
But none of that means you can't have the game choose to create a non-dwarf if it knows non-dwarves exist in a civ (which it does, populations are tracked. You can get figures of non-historical pops straight out of Legends).
Logged

GoblinCookie

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2019, 06:34:16 am »

Ok.
But none of that means you can't have the game choose to create a non-dwarf if it knows non-dwarves exist in a civ (which it does, populations are tracked. You can get figures of non-historical pops straight out of Legends).

The foreign populations aren't tracked in the civ.  The civ presently uses other civs population info to generate the foreign elements in their own population, basically to make a non-historical goblin dwarf citizen it takes a goblin citizen and then simply overiddes it's civilization loyalty with that of the dwarf civilization.  At no point does the civ as a whole 'know' the foreign proportion of it's own citizenry, it only uses it's own data to create it's own citizens and those citizens are always of it's own race. 

To put it another way, the foreign citizens are a layer placed atop the native citizens and these citizens are always of the civs own race.  The sites know the foreign proportion of their own citizenry only in the sense that they have a list of populations to generate of a given size, but the non-historical immigrants are not generated based upon any given site; which is how we can tell at a glance which of our immigrants were previously historical, it says in their bio they were a former member of site government X. 
Logged

Shonai_Dweller

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2019, 04:49:48 pm »

Ok.
But none of that means you can't have the game choose to create a non-dwarf if it knows non-dwarves exist in a civ (which it does, populations are tracked. You can get figures of non-historical pops straight out of Legends).

The foreign populations aren't tracked in the civ.  The civ presently uses other civs population info to generate the foreign elements in their own population, basically to make a non-historical goblin dwarf citizen it takes a goblin citizen and then simply overiddes it's civilization loyalty with that of the dwarf civilization.  At no point does the civ as a whole 'know' the foreign proportion of it's own citizenry, it only uses it's own data to create it's own citizens and those citizens are always of it's own race. 

To put it another way, the foreign citizens are a layer placed atop the native citizens and these citizens are always of the civs own race.  The sites know the foreign proportion of their own citizenry only in the sense that they have a list of populations to generate of a given size, but the non-historical immigrants are not generated based upon any given site; which is how we can tell at a glance which of our immigrants were previously historical, it says in their bio they were a former member of site government X.
Then how do animal person migrations work? Hundreds (sometimes thousands, sometimes "a few") of non-historical animal people join a civ. They're not historical figures, they're not of the civilization's main race, they're abstract population numbers which the game knows exist in that civ.

--edit

Dev 7th devblog.
"The population of each town was roughly 25% dwarven".

Now that may be an entirely new feature and previously it didn't know and Legends data is made up at the time of export. But now it does know. So diversified migrants are possible because there is a pool of abstract pops to draw from which knows what percentage of itself is made up of what race.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 06:42:02 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
Logged

GoblinCookie

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2019, 05:46:37 am »

Then how do animal person migrations work? Hundreds (sometimes thousands, sometimes "a few") of non-historical animal people join a civ. They're not historical figures, they're not of the civilization's main race, they're abstract population numbers which the game knows exist in that civ.

--edit

Dev 7th devblog.
"The population of each town was roughly 25% dwarven".

Now that may be an entirely new feature and previously it didn't know and Legends data is made up at the time of export. But now it does know. So diversified migrants are possible because there is a pool of abstract pops to draw from which knows what percentage of itself is made up of what race.

They don't join the civ directly, they join a particular site of that civ.  The difference between them and more traditional entity based immigrants to AI sites is they use the site's info to equip themselves rather than their original entity which they don't have.  But there is still no tracking at the civilization level of animal people, which means we cannot have animal people immigrants to our fortress. 
Logged

FantasticDorf

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: diverse migrants
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2019, 06:59:04 am »

Dev 7th devblog.
"The population of each town was roughly 25% dwarven".

Now that may be an entirely new feature and previously it didn't know and Legends data is made up at the time of export. But now it does know. So diversified migrants are possible because there is a pool of abstract pops to draw from which knows what percentage of itself is made up of what race.
They don't join the civ directly, they join a particular site of that civ.  The difference between them and more traditional entity based immigrants to AI sites is they use the site's info to equip themselves rather than their original entity which they don't have.  But there is still no tracking at the civilization level of animal people, which means we cannot have animal people immigrants to our fortress.

I think you're being harsh upon the subject of that change which isn't concrete, but the religious changes would also justify free'er movement by migrants and mostly non-historical population to not only go to specifically dwarven sites (leading to 50 migrants arriving in one wave with no good reason other than nowhere to go), its too early to make definite distinctions whether they get citizenship there as they can hold rights to be members of both if they have a spouse landed elsewhere.

Recent example is my human poet Birod, she's from a foriegn hamlet i cross referenced and is fully under my control as a commited post citizenship person but is also still a active member of the other site where her family lives, while being a former member of that site's government. Whether this is bugged or not i do not know, but there's no initial detriment and im trying to experiment to see if i can force her family to migrate out of there by razing the town and causing a refugee crisis before i arrive even if i fail to take or sack it.

Also Shonai, while populations seem to be made at the start, on the regional legends small groups of additional animalpeople join civs at once as a event (along with other things like hunters looking for creatures to hunt then go missing inexplicably), especially elves so i think the forest retreat city format has some initial hardcoding to make it more prevalent.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2