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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2320609 times)


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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5236 on: February 02, 2023, 12:34:23 pm »

Congratulations!  Looking forward to the Linux release.
"I'm glad you exist Speaker, but I also regret not letting you plummet to your death off the Toad's balcony."
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5237 on: February 02, 2023, 03:30:56 pm »

I'm just so happy for Bay12Games today. This game has been so important to me for over 15 years and I'm just overjoyed to see the developers get what they deserve after decades of effort.

DF has been transformational for many and an inspiration for countless players and developers alike. I'm proud to have been a small part of the journey to this point.

Massive congratulations! Excited to see the game get even better!

Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5238 on: February 02, 2023, 04:55:25 pm »

Quote from: dikbutdagrate
1.) What in Sam Hill is an ANY_SOAP_MATERIAL token?
"A token used in defining custom reactions which produce soap goods, armor & weapons." - Would a forbidden beast made of FILTH_Y be weak to bolts made out of soap?

2.) Speaking of filth, will the GENERATES_MIASMA token ever be changed so as to permit materials other than rotting meat to produce miasma?
I've been trying to get a poop mod working for awhile, and the self-interaction logic is complicated enough as it is, (getting the self_interaction delay triggers just right, getting the dwarves to be variable levels of poop shy, having the dwarves physically explode from ruptured organs due to their own poop shyness, getting them dwarves not to poop in the hallways, and getting the dwarves to be consistent in whether they decide to drop their deuce inside of the fort's drinking well or not.) and just having an actual on-point material that functions correctly would be rad. Right now, I have to use RAW_FISH made out of DWARF?. The RAW_FISH looks like an actual dwarf, which then rots into an entire dead dwarf, which then rots again and produces miasma. It's neat, since the dwarves won't actually clean it up on their own for some reason, and thus it requires player micro.

The problem with the work around is that dead raw_fish dwarf statue poop/stuff won't fall through grates and things, which defeats the whole plumbing gameplay idea behind the mod. Also, it's kind of hard to tell whats a dwarf and whats a giant turd that looks like a dwarf.

Ha ha, I don't have any problem expanding how tokens work, though I'm not sure when it'll come up.

Quote from: Immortal-D
There are a lot of issues & QoL considerations that came with Premium (as to be expected).  How are you prioritizing what to work on and otherwise staying organized?

What was your design reason for splitting & recombining the old Masonry-Smoothing-Architect skills? (I'm still confused about Stone Cutting vs. Stone Carving).

Just have to put it all in a list and order the list based on what seems the most urgent or annoying, same as ever.  I'm not sure what more detail I could use to describe it.  Obviously the save corruption stuff is the worst, crashes and things that cause loss of all progress.  Then it just depends on which systems feel the most broken or where changes would help access more of the game for more people.

I really didn't like the mason name being applied to so many things that aren't masonry.  That has bothered me for a long time, and this seemed like a good opportunity to change it, with the save compat break.

Quote from: Criperum
1. How functional prostetics will be in non magical world? Just a pegleg and a hook or dwarven SCIENCE is able to provide somebetter solutions. If so then how anout non magical power armor?
2. I assume absence of health overview of fortress as it was before is just a matter of time or it was removed intentionally?


1. We usually go with the 1400s cutoff for non-magical stuff, and everything up to then would be fair.  So stuff like electricity or nuclear-powered mech suits or whatever wouldn't really be a vanilla thing.

2. therahedwig's answer covers this - just needs lots of art or something to make it work.

Quote from: Draconus_93_
it would be possible to enable an earlier adventure mode release, maybe through a beta branch, even whith the old keyboard based controls/menus?

as a new player what really got me into the game was the ability to play long term runs with multiple forts, and exploring the world i shaped with adventurers. I usually don't play colony sims at all, but the the vast scope of the possible interactions and the proc gen nature of the game hooked me in this time. The lack of adventure mode is however extermly painful for me, it feels like beeing keeped out the most interesting part of the game.

Since the steam release i tried several times to get into the v47 but it's like a totally different game, mostly because of the graphics. So here i am, hoping in a early beta branch, because the developement of the new controls seems to be quite a long term task.

I don't think this is likely.  It doesn't work as-is, unplayable for a variety of reasons, and getting some partially working thing up will just be lost labor.  Once we get the SDL2 stuff up on an experimental branch, which shouldn't be too long from now, we will have that infrastructure though, so I can't rule it out either, at some point down the line.

Quote from: Drakkar
Right now zooming in/out or scaling the UI in the premium version results in textures being blurry and it's especially visible on higher resolutions.
Do you plan to add nearest neighbor scaling in the future?


Quote from: Kapten
So my question is, in what way will we be able to interact with Legends data in the future?

Using dfhack in old versions you can run a exportlegends command and get an (huge) xml-file.
Will/is something similar possible in the steam release? 


Yeah, PatrikLundell's correct, this is just a button that needs to be added, along with a progress bar.  I think Putnam already did a pass on this, in some multithreaded way that either did or didn't work, I don't recall.  It's something we'll get in a patch soon, same xml format as before I imagine.

Quote from: Vanzetti
Remains of ancient civilizations are a common fantasy trope. Are there any plans to implement it in DF? Technically, this could be as easy as generating a random civ, and having all of its members die mysteriously before year 1, leaving behind only ruins. It would be something conceptually similar to how vaults work currently, but with a different flavor. Of course, the key here is to have the ruins be interesting enough to visit.

Yeah, making them interesting is the tricky part, which is why I'd prefer to have existing civs during the regular generation get obliterated/die/fall sometimes instead.  Then you'd have their whole normal history to work with etc., built in the most reliable and consistent way.  This probably requires some of the entity rewrite stuff, since the people of fallen civs won't generally all be dead, but just remerged into new formulations while the ruins still stand.

Quote from: Silverwing235
I trust the bumping up (or down as it may be) of all entity-having creatures' (dwarves, elves, humans at least) CHILD tags to 18 is just temporary? Entirely too heavy post-industrial legislation vibes over here as it is, you see.
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
What was the reason the age of adulthood for all races was raised from 12 to 18 in 50.01?

The switch from child to adult is very sudden regardless of the age it happens at, how would you like to see the transition work in some far off future version of the game where all is possible?

(Yeah I know there are threads where people randomly guess at the reasons, but I'm interested in the actual thinking there. 18 is kind of unprecedented for a "medieval" type game regardless of modern sensibilities).

Eric Blank:

We wanted to get to an apprentice system eventually, tied to both the guild stuff and the workshop profiles, etc., that will capture some more of the distinctions.

The 12->18 thing was from having a graphical game where people were becoming lovers when they became adults.  The old system was abstractly chosen for design purposes, in the same way that the Sims would have people change age groups after 3 days or whatever.  It wasn't about accurate depiction of ancient life - plenty of that goes on these days as well, and ancient/medieval people also generally married later than is often believed, if I recollect.  Abstractly, though, about a decade is a nice fort duration for generations.  Unfortunately it overlaps with reality too much, and it needed to be changed.

Generally speaking, as with the Sims etc., I'd be happy to simulate several stages of childhood, especially as it relates to personality growth and changes, and also advancing the new chores system into something more like the apprenticeships and beyond.

Quote from: OddballJoe
Is there any intention to bring the architecture skill/labor back? Since it's been removed, from what I can tell the requirements for buildings that needed it before are now just carpentry for wood, masonry for stone, and any metalsmith labor (besides furnace operation) for metal.

For what it's worth, I'm fine with this being cut in the interest of streamlining things.


It was a weird skill that only applied in a few weird circumstances, so I was happy enough to see it go.  If it comes back it'll have to be a more worthy context, but it's a little hard in a game where everything is so modular.  But it could be done, with somebody overseeing an overall declared construction zone or something, for a pre-declared structure or wtvr.  Ways to make it work again.

Quote from: Su
how much autonomy does putnam have when deciding what to work on?

has there been any discussion with her yet on plans for the Big Wait?

It's been pretty complete autonomy so far, ha ha, since she's been working on the ports and serious bugs.  Once that stuff is done, we'll need to be more organized.  It has been easy to put it off so far though, since there are so many things sitting there to be worked on.

Quote from: Waterlimon
If you pathfinded simultaneously from both dwarf and their goal (lets say a closed room), and formed path when these two floodfills collide (or just use the second pathfinding source to see if its an enclosed space), would that help avoid lags due to unreachable goal (since you will quickly get the result: room is a closed space)?


Quote from: Virgil
I noticed while looking into Legends Mode that certain hyperlinks seem oddly left out? Masterwork Engravings for example, are given names in every other tab, but ONLY allowed to be opened up in the Art Tab. Meanwhile War Logs describing the details of battles including how many combatants and of what type, as well as the aesthetic "who outwitted who" description don't even get a tab of their own, and have to be manually scrolled through the Chronicles By Age Tab to find their appropriate links.

I feel like this is just an honest mistake, because it doesn't make sense that the hyperlinks system would leave out the ease and convenience of having ALL named historical subject matter be hyperlinked to its appropriate tab?

Would love to know if anyone else is having this problem, or if it's just me. Just to clarify again, my problem is that Masterwork Engravings and Warfare Logs are named throughout every other tab but aren't given hyperlinks except through very specific tabs, whereas other historical subject matter always has a hyperlink no matter what tab you're in.

If it's named, it has a hyperlink across all tabs, except for these two apparently?

Updated Edit: Apparently the Structures Tab is also not hyperlinked through other tabs - does this just need a lil more time to be fully implemented then? Only asking cus I love the hyperlinks system and it gets pretty grating to have to keep backtracking to figure out where certain bits of named information are hiding.

Not so much a mistake as that we didn't have the time to finish them all, generally, when it comes to available hyperlinks.  It really is just a time question and we want to get them all up and working.

Quote from: Criperum
A question to Putnam. What was your first impression on DF source code as a developer? Was it good? Was it OK? Was ot bad?


Quote from: MarioWizard119
A few questions for Toady and/or Putnam regarding modding capabilities

Any idea if or how I could change which “group” professions are in, or add new ones?

For example, if I wanted to move stone crafting and woodcrafting from craftsman to stoneworker and woodworker respectively

Or if I had some sort of Industrial Revolution mod that required an “Electrician” job, and I wanted to put it under engineering.

Or if I wanted to break up craftsman and farmer into separate smaller category professions (rancher, chef, cloth worker, etc)

Also, would it be possible to assign custom profession names to exclusively legendary civilian dwarves akin to the military ones? I like to give them custom nicknames, so I know not to conscript them, and I was wondering if I could use the raws to do that automatically. There has to be something that signals them to blink.

Also with music, how do the particular raw elements for the soundtracks work? Do the sound cards trigger with the same conditions as their full song counterparts? Does the game respect track length, so you could plug in full tracks of your own in place of the sound cards without worrying about overlap, or even add new ones?


Well, it seems from digging deeper I’ve answered a few of my own questions.

To force name color changes, I could probably make a bunch of appointed “noble” positions corresponding to the category professions, with matching colors.

As for appearances, I noticed colors were assigned to professions, not the other way around, and they’re assigned by individual clothing item. Like I could make woodcrafters have blue shirts but yellow pants and shoes.

Though one thing I noticed while digging is that none of the colors had any noble, soldier, or other assigned professions attached to them, therefore they use all black as a default, was this intentional? I could see no colors having soldiers defined cause you’d want them to have the armor material instead, but the nobles and assigned positions I’m not sure about.

The professions cannot currently be regrouped, and you can't add new ones or skills or anything.  We just have the 10 placeholderish modding skills at this point.  More is possible obviously.  Specifics will work better on the suggestion board.

It's not really much of a raw format currently.  I just wanted to get something in there to avoid a save compatibility break later.  The cards associated to tracks trigger with those tracks, yeah.  The game doesn't know track length in advance or otherwise use it, though it might act weird if replacement tracks are really short.

Quote from: magistrate101
1. Could a toggle get added to the stocks screen that hides all the placed/constructed items? It's impossible to know how much of a metal you have left if you used some for walls/floors as they're counted together and you can only tell if it's been used by whether or not the melt button appears for a specific item.
2. Could the stockpile screen be made a bit more granular? ex: Moving clothing to their own category; replacing "usable" and "unusable" toggles with a submenu for equipment/clothe size; creating a writing category that holds sheets, quires, scrolls, book bindings, and scroll rollers (replacing the sheets category). It would be amazing if we could create and edit our own categories like we can for work details, but I understand if that's an ordeal to accomplish.

It all seems reasonable to me.  We're working on quality of life stuff for the next while after the arena, so people should make their suggestions in the forum.

Quote from: Ohtar
Are the fort mode map exports, timelapse maps, or exportable king lists ever making a comeback?


Quote from: jecowa
Is it a bug or a feature that water pressure isn't transferred diagonally?

It seems like it's a bug, but the wiki and a lot of people treat it more like a feature.


Quote from: Urist McSadist
Do you have a rough idea on how the fort economies are gonna work after the economy update?

Nope!  That is a long way off.  Gods will be able to curse goods or explode them or something by then.  But we have a long list of things we'd like to do, like negotiating more specific long term trade deals, fairs, making rarity of goods matter (which completely screws up the current embark system), sending out trade caravans, making all the production stuff from worldgen happen during play throughout the world (which impacts everything), etc.

Quote from: Criperum
What is you vision of gods nature in M&M arc? Are they always primodial and unchanged? Or sometimes gods can be created or altered by compound believe of large enough amount of people?
My question was mostly about people being able to create a new god by believing. Or changing god's aspects like sphere by believeing. For example a new religion with slightly different view of the god emerges and becomes dominant in the world will the corresponding god change to fit the religion?


It's a common enough thing in speculative fiction that I suppose it should be supported, but the gods-through-believing thing has always seemed sort of anachronistic to me (if that's a vaguely right word for such a thing).  Obviously real-world religions have changed/emerged as PatrikLundell went over for example, but the idea of the god itself mutating (rather than interpretations changing) feels more modern, though I have no idea really.

Quote from: Gremie
I've not heard of any way for a dwarf to completely forget who they are, causing a natural or re-rolled personality???

Have you ever considered adding something like this?
with spells, gods curses, extreme physical or physiological trauma

Are there particular problems that could prevent something like this being added?

It hasn't come up!  I don't think it would be hard to add, but it would need to come up.  We've only done the gradual and partial personality changes from memories.

Quote from: A_Curious_Cat
Any chance that some of the money coming in will be spent on digital certificates for and, and setting them up to use https?

A_Curious_Cat (op):
A_Curious_Cat (op):

Last time I tried it there was some your-whole-server-needs-to-be-updated thing that made it not possible with the time I had.  I could try this again when I have a moment and get something more specific to work with.

Quote from: Kyo1995
Dwarf behaviour is very complex and interesting, but there's one point where it falls flat the most, in my opinion: the way civilians handle threats such as invasions and megabeasts feels very robot-like. How feasible would it be to develop a more "organic" threat response? i. e., the first dwarf to see a threat screams very loudly or something like that, and the citizens in a large area either run to their rooms and lock the doors if they're cowardly, while the braver ones grab the nearest improvised weapons, form a group and go investigate the source of the scream. That and walking around armed and doing voluntary civilian drills after the fortress has been attacked a few times recently would make their behaviour feel much more organic. Can we expect anything like that before or during army & siege update?

For the siege update, we're going to focus on the basic stuff first, like the sieges not being a threat at all if you use some minor exploits, or even just accidentally not being a threat.

Something like you describe would essentially require all sieges to start in ambush mode, which feels like it might be a bit off, in terms of it being dramatic.  Even with ambush sieges, if we have dwarves only know about things they've seen individually, then you wouldn't really be able to order squads at all?  It just seems like it wouldn't work, unless the game has no player whatsoever.  Which is fine, for a 100% sim, but not what the game has been up to this point.

Quote from: onura46
Thank you for introducing so much joy into the world with your games. Hope you're happy and healthy! <3 I usually lurk, but had to join and ask:

    1. Are cavern invader numbers pulled from local (site) populations like wild animals, whole world pops, or created ex nihilo? There are numbers that appear in detailed Legends exports which I assume sum of the number of "lizard men", for instance, in the entire world. But are there regional subdivisions beyond that, like one group that lives in the mountains and one group in the hills? An amount just for our site maybe?
    2. I guess the real question between the lines here is: if I choose to genocidally exterminate pacify all the angry natives, could I cause them to go extinct and/or actually stop invasions?
    3. Besides that, any chance for brokering peace with the cavern invaders in the future? Maybe we could offer them tribute? I could sympathize if they didn't want that, though!

1+2. It appears not to care about pops here, aside from using the local layer-linked civ creature type properly.  I think it does have the population information somewhere, but isn't using it.

3. It is pretty extreme right now, especially since I don't thiiiiink indoor irritation dies down the same way outdoor irritation does.

Quote from: Criperum
Did something change in how minecarts work? Looks like some of the old tricks don't work anymore. FOr example minecarts are no longer generate mist when slide over the water on high speed

Eric Blank:

I don't recall changing them at all, or even being in that code area.  We should probably add the ability to do vehicles and tracks to the arena ha ha.

Quote from: NPK
I've think I've noticed that wars are more common and long-lasting once one begins playing in the world (as opposed to during world gen). I assume that probably most activities occur differently, or at different rates, in world gen vs after the world has been active. I was wondering how these world events are handled mechanically in the two different modes? Like, is the code for the various types of events similar in both phases or did each event have to be extensively rewritten for world activation? Any notable examples?

Also, do you have a sort of philosophy when it comes to modeling these historical-type events, in terms of how important the involved actors' personalities and ethics should be, or if things like going to war ought to be based on more practical considerations like likelihood of success and some sort of need or goal to achieve? Or should things be randomized and up to interpretation by the player?

They work pretty differently from each other as I recollect.  I'm not sure there's even any peace-making aside from anything that happens in your fortress.  Everything is mechanically different, since there's very little teleportation since the world activation many years ago, and it just flows out from there.

When it is doing these things, it uses all of those things in a giant mush, randomly in various formulas.  Army size comparisons matter, but the level of hostility and leader personalities also matter.  Since most wars won't involve the player, it's best if it makes some kind of sense rather than being tuned for a given playthrough, although will still do that currently with triggers etc.

Quote from: myk
Outside of a strange mood, Dwarves cannot make blunt weapons out of otherwise wonderfully dense platinum. Is this a game design decision?

myk (op):
Eric Blank:
Eric Blank:

I think the discussion captured what happened here more or less.  I don't have a problem with player dwarves making whatever they want out of whatever, even if it's ridiculous, as long as the item's ridiculousness shines through properly as it deforms and such.  But it shouldn't impact AI decision-making if it's ridiculous.  And I probably just took an easy road way back when, with whatever variables I had at the time.

Quote from: Fell
Is it a possibility to bring back the [PRINT_MODE:TEXT] text mode? I loved to play 47.05 on multiple devices via SSH.


Quote from: Kiloku
In older versions, it was possible to secede from your civ by rejecting the offer to become a barony. This apparently has been changed to only delay the question until the next year without changing political relations. Will the option to secede come back?

Kiloku (op):

I don't recall changing it but I wouldn't be surprised if it works differently since we had to revamp all the diplomacy code to make the new alerts work.  We're not really tackling the meat of this option until we get to embark scenario stuff most likely, though the army/siege stuff is a wildcard vaguely in this direction.

Quote from: Lexyvil
Regarding stairs, I realized that we can no longer build an Up-Stair directly on the same tile as a carved Up/Down stair, to block entry from lower elevations. Was that an intentional change?
Are there also plans to re-implement the ability to build 1 elevation stairs--instead of spanning at minimum 2 elevations--for situations like these where we only want one stair?

It was an intentional change in the sense that we wanted stairs to not be three different tiles that new people have to understand and keep track of.  It was not an intentional change in the sense that we were aware of the issue with not allowing upstairs and just didn't have time to get to it, and are planning to add some sort of system to address it.  I'm not sure what that will look like, since I don't want the three separate tiles to be front and center.  It would be best for the existing construction/designation command to just play nice with each other and allow you to build where you want, while also still requiring multi-level placement or something (and just linking in to existing stuff, combining designations/constructions, etc.)
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5239 on: February 02, 2023, 05:38:40 pm »

Thanks Toady !


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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5240 on: February 02, 2023, 06:05:03 pm »

The multithreaded legends XML export actually worked really well, better than I expected. Problem was more the lack of button and nice UI telling you that an export was going on (if you tried exiting legends while there was an export happening, it would just show you a black screen until the export finished).

Eric Blank

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5241 on: February 02, 2023, 10:59:52 pm »

Thanks for the answers Toady!

Quote from: Criperum
Did something change in how minecarts work? Looks like some of the old tricks don't work anymore. FOr example minecarts are no longer generate mist when slide over the water on high speed

Eric Blank:

I don't recall changing them at all, or even being in that code area.  We should probably add the ability to do vehicles and tracks to the arena ha ha.

If you were to take this route and change tiles on the fly in the arena, you might as well let us place traps, buildings, workshops etc for test purposes as well, maybe make a creature controlled in a "fort mode" way and perform reactions at workshops! Would make testing all sorts of mods a lot easier if we didn't have to generate a world and start a fort to get access to workshops to test reactions.

(No not seriously I know that would be way too difficult.)
I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.


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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5242 on: February 03, 2023, 03:25:03 am »

Hi, I'm new to the forums, but I've been playing since before Steam launched, and that's actually why I had a question. Are there currently any plans to add more music tracks to Dwarf Fortress? If yes, then specifically, are there any plans to port more of Simon Swerwer's DF-inspired music from the SoundSense days? I know we got Koganusan and some tracks that sound like spiritual successors to his music, but his tracks really are the music of Dwarf Fortress for me, and as much as I love the new tracks (ESPECIALLY Vile Force of Darkness), I kinda miss a lot of the old tracks I used to listen to over SoundSense, and even if a lot of the new tracks sound very similar, it's just not the same.

Now that I think of it, have there been any plans to add something along the same vein as Willow and Light by Kevin McLeod? In my personal view, this is the song that embodies the mystique of watching over the world as it comes into being before selecting a site that will become your dwarves' new home, and if I had to pick a song I miss the most from SoundSense, it would have to be this one. Now obviously, the real world is going to get in the way now that DF has gone premium, but I figured I'd put this out there.

and I know I've just asked for a lot, but speaking of all this, would there be a way to turn specific individual music tracks on or off? Sometimes I get sick of hearing one certain track or another, but only on that day. A music mod for the other things might be fine, but a music mod to remove existing tracks might be overkill, since that means the entire timeline now lacks that music track forever. If it's not possible, could it be possible to have a player-adjustable weighting system to reduce the frequency of certain tracks while boosting the likelihood of others? That might be enough, because I do remember how increasing the length between tracks did actually help me quite a lot in that regard, but I still kinda get frustrated at how frequently Strange Moods and Craftsdwarfship are always coming up all the freaking time, but I would love to hear Strike The Earth quite a bit more.

Anyway, thank you for everything, and I'm sorry my questions got a bit rambly and lengthy.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 05:37:54 am by JuniperAndFriends »


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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5243 on: February 03, 2023, 05:02:43 am »

Welcome to the forums, JuniperAndFriends! Questions to Toady should be in lime green (like this:
Code: [Select]
[color=limegreen]in lime green[/color]), though parts of yours could probably be split off to the Suggestions board. :)


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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #5244 on: February 03, 2023, 05:38:11 am »

Thank you!
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