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Author Topic: Returning to the game after hiatus  (Read 1368 times)

ColonelTEE3

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Returning to the game after hiatus
« on: June 25, 2019, 03:49:38 pm »

So i played this game back in 2008 and then again sporadically throughout the years until maybe 2012 or so. I always ended up abandoning my forts because of FPS death, or, less commonly,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
.

I started reading about DF again and it sounds like this is still an ongoing issue. I'd love to come back to this game but sinking hundreds of hours in and then reaching that <10 fps point is just a draining experience.

Is my only option really to make the smallest world with the shortest history starting with the smallest grid and cap my population and never dig too deep?
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Telgin

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2019, 04:11:07 pm »

Performance hasn't changed much since 2012 in my experience.  Admittedly, I haven't played the newest version, but I doubt it changed too much in that respect.  Toady has fixed a few causes of FPS drain, like jobs related to hives, but the new features have more or less taken up any slack fixes like that have brought.

How old is the computer you last tried it on?  Have you gotten a newer one since then?
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ColonelTEE3

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2019, 05:19:49 pm »

Thanks for the reply. That's a little unfortunate to hear.

MOBA and RAM are the same (~2009), graphics card, hard drive, heat sink have been replaced in the last ~3 years. Most everything else under the hood is the same. So yeah if i got a new computer i'm sure that would help, but i've read that running DF is really just a matter of RAM more than anything else. Maybe that's not true though.

I suppose what would be reassuring for me to hear are stories of people who are able to reliably keep FPS at decent rates (30+) even in forts where they didn't have to sacrifice and self-limit so much...
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ColonelTEE3

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2019, 05:42:31 pm »

mis-post
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vjek

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2019, 05:44:31 pm »

For me, I make the world flat enough and fast enough that I haven't run into FPS issues, even when using automated magma drowning hallways.

But, this is what I usually have:
Pocket world with a few hundred years of history. (to get all the artistic stuff in place for taverns/temples)
Less than 20Z between embark and SMR.
One cavern.
Dry cavern. Blood thorn only.
A very small and thin aquifer.
No surface trees, shrubs, or plants.
No rain.  No surface water.
All races visit, either friendly or not.
Vertical layout fort.

And then optionally:
No surface wandering animals, if you really want it like that.
Vampires, Werewolves, Necromancers.
Titans, Semi-megabeasts, Megabeasts.
Larger than a 2x2 embark
Volcano (not really necessary imo with the magma so close, but opinions vary)
HFS/Clowns/Candy.
Lethal cold and/or lethal hot.

Try this fort.  See how it works for you.  If it works fine, you'll probably be fine with a similar world / design / layout in 0.44.12.

mikekchar

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2019, 08:37:42 pm »

I'm one of the worst people to talk about FPS death because I happen to like 20 FPS :-)  I also make relatively small forts.  However, I've never had my FPS go down very much at all, and if I uncap it, it's always well above 100 FPS despite my ageing i5 laptop with 8 gigs of ram.

My opinion is that most of the things people think about WRT FPS are small issues.  Things like plants, temp, waterflow, etc.  There are obviously some strange corner cases where you can get in trouble (especially water flow), but if you are careful, you should have no problems.  Similarly embark size (within reason) isn't a major issue.  I happen to mostly play on small to medium size worlds with 250 years of history mainly because I find those worlds more interesting -- the world is understandable because it's not too vast and not too much has happened yet.  If I do a 4x4 embark and dig down to the caverns immediately, I'll have well over 100 FPS.  In a 1x1 embark, if I run uncapped, it runs so fast that the game can't redraw -- my dwarfs are teleporting everywhere, with the FPS actually overflowing into negative ints (i.e. it's so fast it's broken).  Nothing will happen in world activation that will appreciably slow down your game (except potentially for some weird bugs and edge cases which are unlikely to happen).  So this is how fast your game is WRT plants, temp, water, world activation updates, etc, etc.  Go ahead and try it on a desert with no plants.  Try it with weather turned off and heat turned off, etc, etc.  You will get some speedup, but it's *not* going to be order of magnitude speed up.  It's going to be 10, 20, 30% (maybe).

Unfortunately, I have to go to the dentist, so I can't write any more, but I'll continue with my train of thought in a bit.  Spoiler: I think virtually all problems with FPS in DF relate to pathing and that you can more or less fix it by designing your fortress differently (and also not having several hundred dwarfs in your population).
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daggaz

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2019, 11:34:16 pm »

Pathing is far and away the biggest FPS drain.  You can see this if you let your entire fort go idle in the tavern or whatnot, and then queue a bunch of construction jobs.  The second you unpause, your FPS drops like a rock as everybody rushes around trying to find out how to get a block into the wall.  There's gotta be a better way....
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2019, 09:37:04 am »

Well, new trees in 40.01 really put the damper on FPS, I'm given to understand. Though it seems to be ultimately scale to pathing for the most part.

However, situation has been improving. I started with DF42.06. Based solely on importing one oceanside generational fort with floored-over surface to 44.12, I'd say FPS is about thrice as good as when I started (with 147dwarves/3 uncaged animals 100ish fps - still better viewing underground than aboveground, so there are still issues).

That's with 3 non-dry caverns and ocean, and non-peasant dwarves, though, which are laggy features. I get about same FPS(that is, 100ish), maybe 5% more, on the save vjek posted in vanilla .34.11.

Anyway, worth noting for another fps change from .34, Channeling surface can be bad - though haven't tested this in 44.12. Retiring-unretiring a fort can sometimes help to boost your fps. Or lower it. It varies. Make backups, beware bugs.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 09:45:01 am by Fleeting Frames »
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Telgin

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2019, 09:42:31 am »

Thanks for the reply. That's a little unfortunate to hear.

MOBA and RAM are the same (~2009), graphics card, hard drive, heat sink have been replaced in the last ~3 years. Most everything else under the hood is the same. So yeah if i got a new computer i'm sure that would help, but i've read that running DF is really just a matter of RAM more than anything else. Maybe that's not true though.

I suppose what would be reassuring for me to hear are stories of people who are able to reliably keep FPS at decent rates (30+) even in forts where they didn't have to sacrifice and self-limit so much...

I don't know if anyone has actually profiled the game to find out for sure, but the conventional wisdom is that the RAM's speed is the main limiting factor, yes.  It sounds pretty plausible, since the game uses a ton of memory and has to cross reference things all over the place in ways that I'm expecting are not cache friendly.
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bucketsofbuckets

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2019, 10:22:04 am »

A few questions, if I may...
Less than 20Z between embark and SMR.
Can you do this in worldgen, or just using dfhack to find a good spot, with a 'short' world? Even with minimums between layers and 1 cavern layer, 20Z is awfully short. And, do you use agriculture and trade to get necessary materials? I can have issues mining out enough with 50Z embarks, once the fort is a few years old, and usually try for 100Z or more, to have plenty of good rock and ore.
Quote
A very small and thin aquifer.
Coming back from not playing in a year or more, I'm finding it hard to find what makes for good aquifers, these days. Are there any specific parameters to increase them, or common parameters that are decreasing them? I keep going to embarks with them only to have to use reveal, and find a tiny little pocket on an edge, if anything, rather than the old entire square, or most of one, filled with water. I'm one of those weirdos that likes big aquifers and I cannot lie <whip cracking sound>, and it seems that whole-embark aquifers are not everywhere, these days.

Quote
Vertical layout fort.
The only way to dig! :D

Quote
Lethal cold and/or lethal hot.
Any tips for getting more glacier and tundra squares?

Personally, years ago I got fast low-latency RAM, and have every intention of spending on that again when I upgrade my desktop, to get a little bit extra out of things. Right now I'd probably get the best 3466MHz DDR4 I could find for a decent price, but with AMD officially showing off 3700MHz and up support, there might be even faster affordable RAM when the time comes. It tends to help out in other city builder and strategy games, too.

Assuming things are like older versions (it seems so), small very specific stockpiles (such as 3x3 with 3 wheelbarrows for heavy items, or plain 3x1 or 3x2 for lightweight items), with well-organized take/put relationships set up for those stockpiles (minimize jobs and also minimize path distance between common repeating jobs), keeping workshops and their stockpiles out of the way of regular traffic (including just by low traffic, if the fort doesn't go as planned), have as few open paths between fort sections as possible (preferably one, possibly with locked doors or retracted bridges for military or service tunnel access in a pinch), as few squares to path along as possible, as little chance of pathing with a group of other dwarves as possible, and prolific traffic designations (oh, and set the weights higher in d_init.txt), tended to help quite a lot. No stupid dwarf tricks, just limiting production, stockpiling, and pathable networks (stockpiles are a big one, and most stockpiles only need to be production and consumption buffers).

For example, I might dig down such that every 5Z or 10Z there is a potential fort section to dig out, generally with a purpose other than dining or living space, and with only one way in and out. The dwarves working there will also have their own dining rooms and bedrooms there, with small food and drink stockpiles. I have to give in some, with taverns and temples and whatnot, but that alone can keep them from having to path too much and too far (and thus interact with other dwarves in their way), most of the time. Most other dwarves just come in and drop off or pick up something on a different Z-level than the workshops or bedrooms, or the workshops will have output stockpiles on the ramp/staircase side.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 10:24:12 am by bucketsofbuckets »
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2019, 10:42:45 am »

You can do it in worldgen; just search amongst vjek's post in worldgen cookbook threads for examples. Basically, flat world + minimum distances means the minimum distances you set are always aimed for. I have 19 atm after adding few extra layers for more stone (minimum distance to cavern means instead of magnetite, you have cavernite). Few downsides to 1-cavern worlds are that taller adamantine spires go missing, and you're less likely to get all underground species - though they're already not going to appear in dry cavern.

Looking for Old data on aquifers is still a good idea, especially as DF hasn't updated in nearly a year. Vjek refers to the case where there is a 1z aquifer just outside the embark area (that will then shear inside the embark with few hundred tiles or less). Depth is vital, but if you want to search for full-embark aquifers, maybe use embark-assistant's search function, as clay can block out aquifers as well.

If you search the wiki on Glacier and Tundra, you'll find they'll link to Biome - basically, get temp below -5 for more of them (and don't ask it to reject the world when it doesn't have enough tropical forests or whatnot).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 10:47:12 am by Fleeting Frames »
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vjek

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2019, 02:31:51 pm »

Yep, example below, but pretty straightforward, these days..
Very thin world.  Embark is Z149, Magma forges can be built on Z138.
Has desert, tundra, and swamp all in one embark.  Entire SW corner is solid aquifer from Z-2 down to the middle of the cavern.
Steel friendly.
Has Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and 500 years of history.

Spoiler: Idyllic4-2 (click to show/hide)

mikekchar

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Re: Returning to the game after hiatus
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2019, 03:22:47 am »

bucketsofbuckets Thanks for writing essentially what I was going to write :-)  Actually I'd forgotten about it... ::)
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