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Author Topic: Kaiju-Com 2, July Actions  (Read 21232 times)

Devastator

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #375 on: March 22, 2020, 06:28:45 pm »

That's if you want to send it to someone else.  If you want to give it to someone else for it to be deployed for the next battle, you have to do that now.

If you're deploying it personally, you can do that yourself during the next turn.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #376 on: March 22, 2020, 06:59:46 pm »

That's if you want to send it to someone else.  If you want to give it to someone else for it to be deployed for the next battle, you have to do that now.

If you're deploying it personally, you can do that yourself during the next turn.
thank you for clarifying, will edit action accordingly
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Shadowclaw777

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #377 on: March 22, 2020, 07:34:14 pm »

Okay have now catch up on all the new posts and have some thoughts

-Has my high-energy lab done anything yet, I think this part of describing what it will do, just no information on whether it improves or hasten the project, 1.5 years on Armoured MRLS is still a ouchie :( .
Quote
Most importantly, your high-energy physics lab is complete.  The lead scientists say it'll significantly improve your abilities to research, and they'll have proper updates for your projects following the next research step, the first one which will take advantage of its presence.

Quote
Shadowclaw, I noticed you fielded a forcefield-armored tank.  Is your design adaptable enough that it could protect other units?  I think it'd be immensely effective to make a small-size unit with a forcefield projecter that can be used on other units in a supportive fashion.  Since the unit wouldn't attack on its own, Kaiju shouldn't target it, leaving it only in danger from AoEs.  It'd be fairly survivable, snowball well since smalls are cheap to hold and field, and synergize with pretty much any unit we expect to get shot at.

@Syvarris Contemporary generation electromagnetic protective fields that the Coke Knights have researched, allow them to be applied to vehicle designated sizes of smaller and anything larger, infantry-variants are under R&D, but as long as itís a vehicle it can deploy these generators for a price and improve survivability substantially while in the field.
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Devastator

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #378 on: March 22, 2020, 07:37:53 pm »

Spoiler: Shadowclaw 777 (click to show/hide)
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Happerry

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #379 on: March 22, 2020, 10:09:20 pm »

Sorry Happerry, just one action per turn.  Build one building or research one item.

(I cut you a bit of slack with the damaged building, because it seems like too much punishment to waste a full turn on repairs, but that doesn't apply to everything.)
Alright.

Lord Silver will attend to upgrading his base this phase, upgrading his Medium Lab Zone into a Large Lab Zone.
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Shadowclaw777

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #380 on: March 25, 2020, 02:34:39 am »

« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 02:38:00 am by Shadowclaw777 »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #381 on: March 27, 2020, 03:09:31 am »

Dev asked me if Irony was online hoping that I could usher him into IRC to discuss the creation of a discord server for some reason.
I told Dev that I could also set up a discord server.
So here's that.
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Devastator

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #382 on: March 27, 2020, 03:11:17 am »

It's mostly because I'm only available on IRC for chat, and discord availability is much higher.  Fairly often one of the players comes on and asks some specific mechanics questions and what not, and we have a bit of a lengthy exchange about the subject.  That'll give you a place to put them down once the discussion is over that you can get at more easily.

..Also, there's a lot of negotiation and deals and conversation, and although I like reading it on here, a chat client is a lot more convienent to use for people doing that, so it only makes sense to have a place.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 05:34:59 am by Devastator »
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syvarris

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #383 on: April 01, 2020, 01:09:19 pm »

Hm. Ideally I'd intended to switch to aquatic transports, but that's pretty low on the list. Even if I do switch eventually, I'm probably gonna be relying on air movement for a good long while.

To that end, I can probably guarantee I'll want 2-3 fancier air transports, with a decent chance I'll need something else later. When can you deliver, and would it be helpful if I paid in advance?

Judging from what Dev has said (quotes at bottom of post), I probably won't do any better than doubling the capacity of transports.  That is, making them capable of lifting one huge unit, two larges, four mediums, etc.  Even that might be reaching a bit--I think I'll work on improving their capacity by 50% next, and then extrapolating whether or not researching larger transports is worth it based on how long it takes.  I don't have any information on how inefficient high-speed ships are, but if you're building huge-size infrastructure anyway, I bet ships are better transports long term.

I can't guarantee any time frame, I'd be starting research on better transports this turn.  Currently I can only produce basic transports.  I haven't run the numbers on how much money I need yet, but yes, earlier money would be more useful; the most likely expense is "more workshops", as those are useful immediately upon completion, due to the massive imbalance between combat jet power and production cost.

Oh, also, I can give you kaiju bits.  I don't have a dissection lab, and don't have spare scientists, so even a fairly poor trade is worth it for me.
Sold. Technically I have less need of them than most, but I'd like to keep a varied library on hand. What have you got and what do you want for them?

Guts, Muscle, Skin.  At this point, I don't know precisely what I want--I'm totally willing to just give some to you in exchange for credit.  All of my research capacity is currently wrapped up in things that I intend to mass produce, so I have no use for kaiju bits.  Most immediately, I suppose I'd like to be given a K-bit enhanced unit, so that my proving grounds building can tell me if there's anything special about them.

-Has my high-energy lab done anything yet, I think this part of describing what it will do, just no information on whether it improves or hasten the project, 1.5 years on Armoured MRLS is still a ouchie :( .

Armoured MRLS is a terrible, terrible idea, take it from the military guy that actually gets to know how units work.  Please don't waste time on that.

Quote
Shadowclaw, I noticed you fielded a forcefield-armored tank.  Is your design adaptable enough that it could protect other units?  I think it'd be immensely effective to make a small-size unit with a forcefield projecter that can be used on other units in a supportive fashion.  Since the unit wouldn't attack on its own, Kaiju shouldn't target it, leaving it only in danger from AoEs.  It'd be fairly survivable, snowball well since smalls are cheap to hold and field, and synergize with pretty much any unit we expect to get shot at.

@Syvarris Contemporary generation electromagnetic protective fields that the Coke Knights have researched, allow them to be applied to vehicle designated sizes of smaller and anything larger, infantry-variants are under R&D, but as long as itís a vehicle it can deploy these generators for a price and improve survivability substantially while in the field.

Buffing infantry with forcefields is a very bad idea, due to how infantry work.  They're already durable, but don't deal much damage--and forcefields would take up one of their weapon slots, reducing their potential combat effectiveness while buffing a stat that generally doesn't matter unless the battle is very close to being lost.  At best, the forcefields might have use with Egan's catgirls, since those are infantry that are getting buffed to an insane degree, and therefore can already deal damage *and* want durability.  Even then... the catgirls are kinda a massively expensive boondoggle already, and if everyone helps work on them then the fate of humanity might just come down to the survival of a small group of easily-stomped infantry.

What I was talking about would be a unit that has no offensive capability, but improves the defenses of allied units.  A forcefield truck that makes tanks harder to kill.  Any tanks, at that, not just units designed specifically to take advantage of it.  The reason is that a forcefield is only useful if it gets shot at--if you shield a unit that never gets shot at, you've wasted money on something that hasn't affected any battles.  Also, since units that get shot at tend to die, with armor only really determining how fast they die, it would be very useful if the expensive shield is not lost along with the unit that's getting shot at.  As a bonus, this would mean that one shield can actually be applied to several units in the same battle, potentially multiplying its benefit.

Of course, it might also be really time-consuming to research.  I don't know.  If the forcefields are actually a mod that's applied to other units, rather than being integral to those units, there might not even be any benefit to making a new unit with integral FFs.   In that case, how much do these forcefields cost?  Would you be willing to sell them?  I'm sure people with high-value units might be interested, though I personally probably won't be.  Jets are flimsy, so they don't benefit as much from armor stacking, and any substantial increase to their cost has to be well-justified.


NOTE TO OTHER PLAYERS.  THIS SPOILER IS NOT HIDDEN INFORMATION.  IT'S FREE, POTENTIALLY USEFUL INFORMATION.

Egan_BW

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #384 on: April 01, 2020, 01:21:20 pm »

yes but a singular squad of superhuman catgirls being literally the only thing meaningfully standing between humanity and extinction would be
extremely anime
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Stirk

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #385 on: April 01, 2020, 01:41:47 pm »

Quote
Buffing infantry with forcefields is a very bad idea, due to how infantry work.  They're already durable, but don't deal much damage--and forcefields would take up one of their weapon slots, reducing their potential combat effectiveness while buffing a stat that generally doesn't matter unless the battle is very close to being lost.  At best, the forcefields might have use with Egan's catgirls, since those are infantry that are getting buffed to an insane degree, and therefore can already deal damage *and* want durability.  Even then... the catgirls are kinda a massively expensive boondoggle already, and if everyone helps work on them then the fate of humanity might just come down to the survival of a small group of easily-stomped infantry.

They'd be useful once I get the man portable nukes up, especially if they can reduce the radiation effects allowing the weapons to be used closer. Your advice kinda has a contradiction in the "durable easy to stomp infantry", and it doesn't really make sense to not min-max their specialty rather than trying to cover their weakness. If infantry are effectively durable, then increasing their durability is a priority rather than something to ignore. Like lets compare it to your advice on the Armored MRLS - trying to give high defense to something with high offense. Here you are suggesting the opposite of trying to make it an all rounder, ignoring defense for something focused on firepower. Why would you suggest the opposite for a defense focused unit - focusing on improving the weak-points instead of strengthening the strengths?
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syvarris

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #386 on: April 01, 2020, 02:11:54 pm »

They'd be useful once I get the man portable nukes up, especially if they can reduce the radiation effects allowing the weapons to be used closer. Your advice kinda has a contradiction in the "durable easy to stomp infantry", and it doesn't really make sense to not min-max their specialty rather than trying to cover their weakness. If infantry are effectively durable, then increasing their durability is a priority rather than something to ignore. Like lets compare it to your advice on the Armored MRLS - trying to give high defense to something with high offense. Here you are suggesting the opposite of trying to make it an all rounder, ignoring defense for something focused on firepower. Why would you suggest the opposite for a defense focused unit - focusing on improving the weak-points instead of strengthening the strengths?

Stomps have extremely high damage, with the tradeoff that they're melee only and relatively easy to avoid with range and numbers.  They're kinda inherently a counter to any singular eggs-in-one-basket unit, especially one that's small (which equals worse defensive stats).  I suppose this is information that I probably haven't shared, because it came up in random conversation rather than during a questioning session.

The old advice I originally gave before any real Kaiju fights, about buffing up high-defense units to use as tanks, is outdated.  Kaiju, currently, prioritize units that deal damage to them, with a seeming preference for the units that deal the most damage.  Therefore, the units that need defense the most are the units that deal the most damage, while units who deal the least damage (which is currently infantry, though MG jeeps are worse) have much less use for defense, beyond risks of AoEs... which we haven't really seen yet, anyway.  Also, finally, infantry are just a poor platform for improvements in general--their weapons are functionally a size below small, which means they're the most difficult to improve.  You'll get better results making a strong small unit, which itself will be worse than a medium unit, which itself will be worse than a large unit, which of course will be worse than a huge.  The cost is just in larger infrastructure being more expensive and time consuming to get running.

As for the MRLS, it's dumb because it's redoing work.  The MRLS has at best a somewhat better attack than a tank, while being worse basically everywhere else, especially survivability.  It's why they're so much cheaper than modern tanks, and their cheapness is also the reason why they're more useful than tanks--slightly better gun, less cost.  Making an armored MRLS is functionally spending several turns designing a unit that we already have, and which isn't really great at anything anyway.  It'd be far better to just start with modern tanks, and make them useful.  Give them a bigger gun, so their armor is the first thing to be attacked, and then maybe buff armor as well once you have something that can consistently draw aggro.

Stirk

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #387 on: April 01, 2020, 02:30:44 pm »

They'd be useful once I get the man portable nukes up, especially if they can reduce the radiation effects allowing the weapons to be used closer. Your advice kinda has a contradiction in the "durable easy to stomp infantry", and it doesn't really make sense to not min-max their specialty rather than trying to cover their weakness. If infantry are effectively durable, then increasing their durability is a priority rather than something to ignore. Like lets compare it to your advice on the Armored MRLS - trying to give high defense to something with high offense. Here you are suggesting the opposite of trying to make it an all rounder, ignoring defense for something focused on firepower. Why would you suggest the opposite for a defense focused unit - focusing on improving the weak-points instead of strengthening the strengths?

Stomps have extremely high damage, with the tradeoff that they're melee only and relatively easy to avoid with range and numbers.  They're kinda inherently a counter to any singular eggs-in-one-basket unit, especially one that's small (which equals worse defensive stats).  I suppose this is information that I probably haven't shared, because it came up in random conversation rather than during a questioning session.

The old advice I originally gave before any real Kaiju fights, about buffing up high-defense units to use as tanks, is outdated.  Kaiju, currently, prioritize units that deal damage to them, with a seeming preference for the units that deal the most damage.  Therefore, the units that need defense the most are the units that deal the most damage, while units who deal the least damage (which is currently infantry, though MG jeeps are worse) have much less use for defense, beyond risks of AoEs... which we haven't really seen yet, anyway.  Also, finally, infantry are just a poor platform for improvements in general--their weapons are functionally a size below small, which means they're the most difficult to improve.  You'll get better results making a strong small unit, which itself will be worse than a medium unit, which itself will be worse than a large unit, which of course will be worse than a huge.  The cost is just in larger infrastructure being more expensive and time consuming to get running.

As for the MRLS, it's dumb because it's redoing work.  The MRLS has at best a somewhat better attack than a tank, while being worse basically everywhere else, especially survivability.  It's why they're so much cheaper than modern tanks, and their cheapness is also the reason why they're more useful than tanks--slightly better gun, less cost.  Making an armored MRLS is functionally spending several turns designing a unit that we already have, and which isn't really great at anything anyway.  It'd be far better to just start with modern tanks, and make them useful.  Give them a bigger gun, so their armor is the first thing to be attacked, and then maybe buff armor as well once you have something that can consistently draw aggro.

We've had multiple TPKs/near TPKs. Kaiju might aggro the strongest offensive unit, but that doesn't mean they never attack the lower power units. Namely when everything tougher dies. Most of our missions are effectively on a clock where we just need to hold the kaiju off, so having our last line of defense be our strongest defensively is plenty logical. If we really want to, we could come up with some way to aggro the kaiju (ex pheromones from parts, irritating sonic/chemical weapons, or just a bunch of flashing lights)...though I doubt infantry would be the ideal placement for such tools.
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syvarris

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #388 on: April 01, 2020, 04:47:27 pm »

We've had multiple TPKs/near TPKs. Kaiju might aggro the strongest offensive unit, but that doesn't mean they never attack the lower power units. Namely when everything tougher dies. Most of our missions are effectively on a clock where we just need to hold the kaiju off, so having our last line of defense be our strongest defensively is plenty logical.

Bolded part isn't true at all.  We've had one mission that was on a timer, and it was very much a special case, considering New York is the richest city in the world, and is a part of the most militarily powerful nation in the world.  Most of our missions either end with the Kaiju dying, with the speed of the kill determining how much damage is done to the city before its death, or they end with us dying, and then the Kaiju maybe-maybe not getting to destroy the entire city, depending on how the local military responds.

Beyond that, no, this doesn't make sense.  We are always limited in how much value in terms of units that we can field, both in an obvious metric (cost of those units), and a non-obvious metric (research time dedicated to improving those units).  If we spend some of that value--be it cost or research time--on tougher units, then we aren't spending it on more damage.  Thus, we want to maximize our gains from any toughness buffs, because unlike damage, they aren't constantly being used regardless of the unit.

Indeed, toughness that isn't actually touched is useless, because it does not affect the outcome of the battle.  If you spend 500 on making your DPS units tougher, and none of them die (or, as seems somewhat likely, they all get oneshot anyway), then you effectively gained nothing from spending that money, when you would have definitely gained something from spending 500 on better damage--likely a faster kill, which means less city destruction, which means better pay.  And less kaiju attacks suffered, for us.  More damage is always good, you can't have too much damage.

Anyway.  The reason why I still recommend creating a heavily armored tank unit is that armor is disproportionately valuable the earlier it is used.  Essentially, every unit deals its damage every round.  Every unit lost is a reduction to the amount of damage we're dealing.  Consider if we have, say, five units that all deal 1 point of damage every round, but four of them die in one hit while the fifth, who is always targeted first, dies in five hits.  They'll deal 5*5+4+3+2+1=30 points of damage, and die after sustaining nine hits.  If instead we had five units that deal one damage, and each take two hits to kill, then we'll instead dead 5+5+4+4+3+3+2+2+1+1= 30 points of damage, and die after sustaining ten hits.  So they have more overall HP, but deal less damage over a longer period of time, and take more significant losses if the Kaiju only needs, say, 18 damage dealt to it.  And all that, despite probably costing more, because every unit is a buffed design, rather than a singular buffed design and a gaggle of cheap units.

This all being said, it is reliant on my understanding of Kaiju prioritizing the most damaging units.  I think I have a fairly decent base for this, considering I did do a detailed examination of several Kaiju fights--but I haven't analyzed the last couple, which could have more information that contradicts my previous hypothesis.  If you want to read over them and try and figure out if there's any other patterns to how the Kaiju attacks, that would be totally awesome and could prove me completely wrong.

If we really want to, we could come up with some way to aggro the kaiju (ex pheromones from parts, irritating sonic/chemical weapons, or just a bunch of flashing lights)...though I doubt infantry would be the ideal placement for such tools.

These are all awesome ideas which I fully support.  I'll happily throw kaiju bits at you, if you want to use them to develop such a thing.  Free of charge.

Stirk

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Re: Kaiju-Com 2, June Purchases
« Reply #389 on: April 01, 2020, 05:06:13 pm »

We've had multiple TPKs/near TPKs. Kaiju might aggro the strongest offensive unit, but that doesn't mean they never attack the lower power units. Namely when everything tougher dies. Most of our missions are effectively on a clock where we just need to hold the kaiju off, so having our last line of defense be our strongest defensively is plenty logical.

Bolded part isn't true at all.  We've had one mission that was on a timer, and it was very much a special case, considering New York is the richest city in the world, and is a part of the most militarily powerful nation in the world.  Most of our missions either end with the Kaiju dying, with the speed of the kill determining how much damage is done to the city before its death, or they end with us dying, and then the Kaiju maybe-maybe not getting to destroy the entire city, depending on how the local military responds.

Beyond that, no, this doesn't make sense.  We are always limited in how much value in terms of units that we can field, both in an obvious metric (cost of those units), and a non-obvious metric (research time dedicated to improving those units).  If we spend some of that value--be it cost or research time--on tougher units, then we aren't spending it on more damage.  Thus, we want to maximize our gains from any toughness buffs, because unlike damage, they aren't constantly being used regardless of the unit.

Indeed, toughness that isn't actually touched is useless, because it does not affect the outcome of the battle.  If you spend 500 on making your DPS units tougher, and none of them die (or, as seems somewhat likely, they all get oneshot anyway), then you effectively gained nothing from spending that money, when you would have definitely gained something from spending 500 on better damage--likely a faster kill, which means less city destruction, which means better pay.  And less kaiju attacks suffered, for us.  More damage is always good, you can't have too much damage.

Anyway.  The reason why I still recommend creating a heavily armored tank unit is that armor is disproportionately valuable the earlier it is used.  Essentially, every unit deals its damage every round.  Every unit lost is a reduction to the amount of damage we're dealing.  Consider if we have, say, five units that all deal 1 point of damage every round, but four of them die in one hit while the fifth, who is always targeted first, dies in five hits.  They'll deal 5*5+4+3+2+1=30 points of damage, and die after sustaining nine hits.  If instead we had five units that deal one damage, and each take two hits to kill, then we'll instead dead 5+5+4+4+3+3+2+2+1+1= 30 points of damage, and die after sustaining ten hits.  So they have more overall HP, but deal less damage over a longer period of time, and take more significant losses if the Kaiju only needs, say, 18 damage dealt to it.  And all that, despite probably costing more, because every unit is a buffed design, rather than a singular buffed design and a gaggle of cheap units.

This all being said, it is reliant on my understanding of Kaiju prioritizing the most damaging units.  I think I have a fairly decent base for this, considering I did do a detailed examination of several Kaiju fights--but I haven't analyzed the last couple, which could have more information that contradicts my previous hypothesis.  If you want to read over them and try and figure out if there's any other patterns to how the Kaiju attacks, that would be totally awesome and could prove me completely wrong.

If we really want to, we could come up with some way to aggro the kaiju (ex pheromones from parts, irritating sonic/chemical weapons, or just a bunch of flashing lights)...though I doubt infantry would be the ideal placement for such tools.

These are all awesome ideas which I fully support.  I'll happily throw kaiju bits at you, if you want to use them to develop such a thing.  Free of charge.

We've had multiple missions that where on a timer. I haven't seen any which wasn't
-First kaiju: Held off by K-com units, time allows it to be destroyed
-Second Kaiju: Naval support from the locals
-Third Kaiju: Send a couple of APCs while preparing to use the time to zerg swarm the Kaiju
-Fourth escapes because we couldn't hold it off long enough for the Italian military to show up

In all cases the locals have attempted to fight them off themselves and it always had the implication that if we can hold them off long enough the local military will assist with enough force that we should be victorious.

Toughness buffs work both in cost of units (they reduce how many replacements you need to buy) and in practicality (more defense = more time on the field = more damage). More damage isn't an end all in killing kaiju, as far as I've seen. Glass cannons arn't the most optimal fighting force by any metric.

Quote
Indeed, toughness that isn't actually touched is useless, because it does not affect the outcome of the battle.  If you spend 500 on making your DPS units tougher, and none of them die (or, as seems somewhat likely, they all get oneshot anyway), then you effectively gained nothing from spending that money, when you would have definitely gained something from spending 500 on better damage--likely a faster kill, which means less city destruction, which means better pay.  And less kaiju attacks suffered, for us.  More damage is always good, you can't have too much damage.

In all the fights we've seen so far it has mattered. We haven't seen one fight where we took no casualties. We've seen a couple where we took 100% casualties. If we can't bring it up to the point that we'd get at least two hits in, then you'd be right...but the same could be said if you upgrade your weapon and it doesn't reduce the hits to kill on the kaiju. That doesn't mean upgrading a weapon is useless, it means that you took a specific case where it would be useless entirely to imply it would always be the case.

Quote
These are all awesome ideas which I fully support.  I'll happily throw kaiju bits at you, if you want to use them to develop such a thing.  Free of charge.

I'd rather convince someone else to be the decoy then sending my own dudes out for that job :V
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