Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?  (Read 1213 times)

Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« on: September 15, 2019, 04:52:55 pm »

According to the wiki, Dwarven, Elvish, Human, and Goblin all have accented letters. Yet some time after downloading PerdexisErrant's Starter Pack 0.44.12-r05, without modifying any of those languages in the raws, I was surprised to realized that none of those four languages had any accented letters whatsoever, explaining why I hadn't seen any in the various worlds I've played in (I looked in their raw files to verify this). Any idea what caused this? I'm confused.
Logged

Clément

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2019, 05:30:14 pm »

Some tileset/graphics mods remove accented characters, so they can be replaced with graphical tiles (e.g. ó and ò as levers). Although it is not as useful now as it was before, thanks to twbt which separate text and graphics.
Logged
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2019, 06:01:43 pm »

Hmm. shrugs
Also - not really related, but the ç and à letters display oddly in Dwarf Fortress's UI for me. Who knows why, but plançon à picot becomes the below image in the Object Testing Arena's UI for creating a unit:

As you might expect, this can create some oddities in itself.
For clarification: a plançon à picot is a weapon of medieval times.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 06:08:42 pm by IncompetentFortressMaker »
Logged

Clément

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2019, 06:13:11 pm »

I cannot see the image.
Quote
Access denied.

Anonymous caller does not have storage.objects.get access to discord/attachments/336198480756473856/622931238797312000/unknown.png.
Logged
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2019, 06:42:56 pm »

Ah, well... Apologies. There's nothing much I can do about that at present.
Logged

Sizik

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2019, 12:48:59 pm »

The image says "iron plançon à picot"

Is that something you modded yourself? It looks like the ç and à characters are encoded in UTF-8, while DF uses an extended ASCII character set known as code page 437. So the ç for example is saved as the two-byte sequence C3 A7, which renders as ├º in DF.
Logged
Skyscrapes, the Tower-Fortress, finally complete!
Skyscrapes 2, repelling the zombie horde!
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2019, 01:22:56 pm »

Yes, I modded the weapon in. I didn't edit the default languages though. Anyway, I do think that might cause issues if, say, someone wanted to make a custom civilization speak French for whatever reason.
Logged

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2019, 02:39:16 pm »

Yes, I modded the weapon in. I didn't edit the default languages though. Anyway, I do think that might cause issues if, say, someone wanted to make a custom civilization speak French for whatever reason.
You can't make a civ speak any naturally occurring languages as the DF language model is a simple word replacement one. The order of the words is fixed and the words to use is as well (an example is that the French have hunger while English speakers are hungry. This is/have mismatch is all over the place between many languages, and there are many other cases). And that's well before going into verb forms and other horrors. You also have many languages that insist on the specification of a gender (in French, again, you have to chose between a male cat and a female cat, although the male form is the default one, and German adds Neutrum to the spectrum of genders). Add to this that there are languages that modify base words rather than have an extra word indicating it for some situtations (Scandinavian languages add and indication of determined form as well as plural to the end of the word, for instance). Then you can add Welsh (and Gernanic language) mashing together multiple word into a single big one.

However, the issue you had was using the wrong character convention (UTF-8 multi character rather than the code page DF uses).
It seems all of this will be tossed up into the air with the Premium release, as I believe DF will use a wider character set to counter that it ran out of characters many years ago. I haven't seen any indication of what that character set would be, however.
Logged
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2019, 03:54:57 pm »

Hmm... may have to try using DF's accented letters, though what difference that makes I have no idea.
Logged

PatrikLundell

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2019, 01:22:27 am »

Hmm... may have to try using DF's accented letters, though what difference that makes I have no idea.
Using the hex code that DF interprets as the desired letter (because that's what the code page it uses says should be represented that way), causes DF to display that character. Using the corresponding letter from a different encoding scheme (e.g. UTF-8) makes as much sense as to try to speak e.g. French to someone who only understand English: Even if the corresponding words have the intended meaning, the still can't be interpreted correctly.

Also note that text get garbled when using tile sets unless you use TwbT, as DF uses the same character for multiple purposes, which the tile sets typically try to depict an image of the corresponding item rather than an image of the character.
Logged
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2019, 06:21:15 pm »

Yes, well... how exactly would I get the hex code to be entered for, say, í?
Logged

lethosor

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2019, 12:22:40 am »

Yes, well... how exactly would I get the hex code to be entered for, say, í?
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Character_table has a full list.
As for how you enter it in your text editor, that depends on what editor you're using.
Logged
DFHack - Dwarf Manipulator (Lua) - DF Wiki talk

There was a typo in the siegers' campfire code. When the fires went out, so did the game.
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2019, 12:08:58 pm »

According to https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_437, the hex code for à is "00E0". DF's character table page appears to modify that to "E0" for its à, yet since the character à appears to be the same number (133) on both pages, what could be my problem? I can't just copy-and-paste the à from either page into my raw file(s) and expect it to work, can I? After all, it looks the same as entering à via "Alt (held) + Num0-Num2-Num2-Num4" or "Alt (held) + Num1-Num3-Num3" (these are Alt+numpad key combinations for entering the character à).
Logged

lethosor

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2019, 12:55:51 pm »

00E0 and E0 are the same hex code, just like 133 and 00133 are the same decimal number. DF didn't change anything; it just only supports CP437, so the DF wiki table just displays two hex digits because it doesn't need more.
What editor are you using? I'd expect alt+133 to work on Windows, and maybe your editor is detecting that the file uses CP437 and displaying à correctly.
Logged
DFHack - Dwarf Manipulator (Lua) - DF Wiki talk

There was a typo in the siegers' campfire code. When the fires went out, so did the game.
Re: Well, that's an oddity... Dwarven has no accented letters?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2019, 01:17:29 pm »

Using Notepad++. Either combination works, but it's more the display in DF I'm worried about. For example, assuming you have the ability to, compare these images:


Might the encoding (ANSI in Dwarven, UTF-8 in my modded language) have anything to do with it? Note that I copied the default language raw files from a friend's computer via Wi-Fi to get versions of them with accented letters; had versions with no accented letters originally. The encoding might have been changed during copying for all I know.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2