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What should be the most powerful weapon-grade elven material?

Just wood with some tweak (blessed, runed, poisoned, etc)
- 0 (0%)
A special bone-made metal-like material
- 0 (0%)
Fancy glass
- 0 (0%)
A special native elven metal
- 0 (0%)
Standard vanilla metal, obtained in some magical/alchemical/hippie way
- 0 (0%)
Rough gems
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: October 30, 2019, 02:06:51 pm


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Author Topic: [WIP] Elven Forest - !!RESTARTED!!  (Read 22113 times)

Kiloku

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2019, 06:57:27 pm »

I think a lot more could potentially be done with animals and the animal trainer/care skills. Maybe ways to train animals past just "war". Maybe even train them to do other things too.

Awesome idea! Just imagine, labor bears hauling your goods around. Cleaner monkeys scurrying around cleaning up the grounds. Birds singing in the tavern.
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DerMeister

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2019, 07:15:08 pm »

LargeSnail, I envy your patience. Best of luck with the mod. :)

About mithril, let me quote the wiki on LOTR (since I assume it's what you'd base it on): In Tolkien's Middle-earth, mithril is extremely rare by the end of the Third Age, as it was now found only in Khazad-dûm. Once the Balrog destroyed Khazad-dûm, the kingdom of the Dwarves in Moria, the only source of new mithril ore was cut off. Before Moria was abandoned by the Dwarves, while it was still being actively mined, mithril was worth ten times its weight in gold.[2] After the Dwarves abandoned Moria and production of new mithril stopped entirely, it became priceless.

Aka: Mithril is a dwarven metal, not elven.

Thanks Meph :)

I was thinking in your Masterwork mod, where (according to the DF Wiki) elves could sell and produce mithril.
I don't like metalsmithing for the elves, but I could make an exception with mithril. Adding a Coldworking Forge to produce mithril weapons and armor without fuel (with the probability of producing a worn item instead of a regular one, to simulate product deficiency) looks fine to me, but I want to make it something difficult to reach.

I agree with @DerMeister , the elves should be difficult to play with. I would like to add some metal, like mithril or something else, as an late game resource.

If you do go with Mithril (or some other name for a similar material), it'd need to be about as risky and difficult to obtain as Adamantine. 

I guess it'd be no fun for it to be a metal deep underground like Adamantine. Mining a special metal doesn't seem very elvish. What's your plan for it?

Sure, Mithril (or whatever be the name I'll give to that elven metal) must be something hard to obtain. While mining isn't an option, it could be reached through alchemy or magic.

I would reconsider only growing items in spring. That a long rest of the year that the player cant do much.

The idea of only growing items in Spring is something like an incentive for the player to develop another industries. Producing infinite amounts of any good for free is very cheat. Why would someone create amber beds, wicker furniture or ceramic goods if their wooden versions are always free?

I need more ideas for elven industries. These are the ones that I've in mind:
  • Petrified Wood Industry (uses engraver skill and petrified wooden logs to produce weapons and furniture at the Stonecutter's Shop)
  • Grown Wood Industry (already explained)
  • Amber Industry (uses gemcutting skill and rough amber to produce weapons and furniture at the Ambercutter's Atelier)
  • Wicker Industry (uses herbalist skill and wicker from plants to produce wicker stuff at the Wicker Works)
  • Alchemy Industry (uses alchemist skill and differents reagents to produce potions, soap, fuel from oil and better materials at the Alchemist's Workshop and the Elven Athanor)

What could I add?
Elves have no industries, only plant growing and anomal care. But you can add some biological. In one cheater mod dwarves have creatures with shearable skin, shearable ivory and other stupid things. But with elven magic it can be interesting. Like you can grow apples on oak, you can grow horns on pig!

Also. if you like useful magic, you can add magical transforming animals into giant versions. With previous suggestion, you can milk honey from giant bees.

As beds you can add cloth version (hammock) and fearher version (pillow). Elves can make feathers shearable. This better than amber beds (sounds like gold toilets).

Elves have and really must have no materials like metal. Because they are biological civilisation. But they can have and improve their beasts. 

Beasts mat be not only giant. They can evolve into new species. I will give you small list of examples.

Elves use their beasts for a lot of things. Needs mining? Elves not make metal pick, they prefer use giant mole to dig. War? They not make stronger armor. But make stronger army of really big beasts.

You trying to make elves like dwarves. But they are really not as dwarves.
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LargeSnail

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2019, 09:31:38 pm »

I think a lot more could potentially be done with animals and the animal trainer/care skills. Maybe ways to train animals past just "war". Maybe even train them to do other things too.
Awesome idea! Just imagine, labor bears hauling your goods around. Cleaner monkeys scurrying around cleaning up the grounds. Birds singing in the tavern.

Citizens' labors in animals is a wonderful idea indeed. That could be a good solution to the weakness of the elven workers and warriors, but should employ some plugin like Autolabor (adapted to pets) or a very complex script.

They could be trained not only in the traditional vanilla way, but also they could improve some useful skills (like bite, discipline and dodging). Imagine an armored elephant trained to the point of being a legendary kicker or a grand master fighter gorilla.

Elves have no industries, only plant growing and anomal care. But you can add some biological. In one cheater mod dwarves have creatures with shearable skin, shearable ivory and other stupid things. But with elven magic it can be interesting. Like you can grow apples on oak, you can grow horns on pig!

Using magic to apply mutations is almost impossible. I would need to add a bunch of fake creatures with a lot of castes to simulate every mutation (and transforming the wildlife doesn't look elvish, it's more fitting for a Skaven mod).

Also. if you like useful magic, you can add magical transforming animals into giant versions. With previous suggestion, you can milk honey from giant bees.

That's a very good idea indeed, and very easy to apply.
Also, I could add some giant versions only available to elves, like the giant bees you say or giant unicorns.


Quick Question 2: Should elves interact with fairies and pixies in some magical way?


As beds you can add cloth version (hammock) and fearher version (pillow). Elves can make feathers shearable. This better than amber beds (sounds like gold toilets).

Adding hammocks and featherwork is a simple and good idea indeed.
Amber beds are something fancy I would like to add to them. It's like the gem beds in the Meph Tileset.

Elves have and really must have no materials like metal. Because they are biological civilisation. But they can have and improve their beasts. 

Beasts mat be not only giant. They can evolve into new species. I will give you small list of examples.

Elves use their beasts for a lot of things. Needs mining? Elves not make metal pick, they prefer use giant mole to dig. War? They not make stronger armor. But make stronger army of really big beasts.

Mining is something that I'll NOT add to elves in no way. But boosting your pets with magic looks fine to me, as I said before.

Edit: typos
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 09:46:59 pm by LargeSnail »
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DerMeister

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2019, 11:45:26 pm »

I think a lot more could potentially be done with animals and the animal trainer/care skills. Maybe ways to train animals past just "war". Maybe even train them to do other things too.
Awesome idea! Just imagine, labor bears hauling your goods around. Cleaner monkeys scurrying around cleaning up the grounds. Birds singing in the tavern.

Citizens' labors in animals is a wonderful idea indeed. That could be a good solution to the weakness of the elven workers and warriors, but should employ some plugin like Autolabor (adapted to pets) or a very complex script.

They could be trained not only in the traditional vanilla way, but also they could improve some useful skills (like bite, discipline and dodging). Imagine an armored elephant trained to the point of being a legendary kicker or a grand master fighter gorilla.

Elves have no industries, only plant growing and anomal care. But you can add some biological. In one cheater mod dwarves have creatures with shearable skin, shearable ivory and other stupid things. But with elven magic it can be interesting. Like you can grow apples on oak, you can grow horns on pig!

Using magic to apply mutations is almost impossible. I would need to add a bunch of fake creatures with a lot of castes to simulate every mutation (and transforming the wildlife doesn't look elvish, it's more fitting for a Skaven mod).

Also. if you like useful magic, you can add magical transforming animals into giant versions. With previous suggestion, you can milk honey from giant bees.

That's a very good idea indeed, and very easy to apply.
Also, I could add some giant versions only available to elves, like the giant bees you say or giant unicorns.


Quick Question 2: Should elves interact with fairies and pixies in some magical way?


As beds you can add cloth version (hammock) and fearher version (pillow). Elves can make feathers shearable. This better than amber beds (sounds like gold toilets).

Adding hammocks and featherwork is a simple and good idea indeed.
Amber beds are something fancy I would like to add to them. It's like the gem beds in the Meph Tileset.

Elves have and really must have no materials like metal. Because they are biological civilisation. But they can have and improve their beasts. 

Beasts mat be not only giant. They can evolve into new species. I will give you small list of examples.

Elves use their beasts for a lot of things. Needs mining? Elves not make metal pick, they prefer use giant mole to dig. War? They not make stronger armor. But make stronger army of really big beasts.

Mining is something that I'll NOT add to elves in no way. But boosting your pets with magic looks fine to me, as I said before.

Edit: typos
For labors you can write script that add to creatures natural skill by special training. Also you can make script that make some creatures (elephants, chimps, parrots) sapient when they are elven sitizens. Not forget adding grasp token to trunk or another body parts like I add grasp ability to harpies.

You can make this bunch by creature variation mechanic (like Toady make giant animals and animal people). Transforming wildlife is elvish, vanilla elves make trees bigger and grow different fruits on them, and even growing tree parts into shape of weapons, tools and other items. So it is absolutely elvish, when your idea of metals and spells for them is absolutely unelvish.

Probably. But not giant satyrs. About other wariations, I suggest wooly (growing shearable yarn on creature), feathery (with shearable feathers), horned (groving horns), trunked (remake nose into grasp trunk, not for all creatures, but just imagine example horse with trunk like small elephant), stinged (grow sting on tail), with some kinds of poison (for predators - bite or talons, for hairless and featherless - liquid skin secretions, for stinged - in stinger, and some special like camel or llama who spit poison) and shell-covered (alternative for armor - transforming skin tissue layer into segmented or scale-like shell tissue layer). I not sure about adding wings, in current version it not so useful. Also possible adding web or more legs, but I think this will be incongruous. You not need this variatins for all animals, just for animals who with it will looks not fully absurd.

Amber beds is luxury in nonelvish way. I not sure even elves have any luxury. What about grown wooden bed with grown leaves and frowers as decorations?

Digging soil, I mean. But with their nature fanatism even this may be forbidden.
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brolol.404

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2019, 06:48:05 am »

I think adding pixies and fairies somehow would be cool. Not sure how to incorporate it though. Also shapeshifting into animals and using nature spells (like grasping vines, briarthorn wall, etc.) would be fun if you can get it to work well.

Kiloku

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2019, 08:36:51 am »

-snip-
Also shapeshifting into animals and using nature spells (like grasping vines, briarthorn wall, etc.) would be fun if you can get it to work well.

Isn't shapeshifting a feature planned for the next update? Or is that the one after? All I know is Toady has already developed part of it and tested the barebones (there's a fun devlog about his adventurer becoming an owl for a week)
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Meph

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2019, 05:41:47 pm »

Have you seen http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143563.0 or http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=160610.0 ?

The ideas at the time were a mix of DF elves; irish/british folklore with elven courts; LotR/Warhammer high elves; and ent/plant loving sylvan/wood elves.
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brolol.404

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2019, 06:08:55 pm »

Have you seen http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143563.0 or http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=160610.0 ?

The ideas at the time were a mix of DF elves; irish/british folklore with elven courts; LotR/Warhammer high elves; and ent/plant loving sylvan/wood elves.

I really like the idea of elven courts and almost started a mod on it in the past but never did.

Rekov

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2019, 06:09:04 pm »

I don't know if this is possible in Dwarf Fortress as it stands now, but plant-based traps.

Instead of building mechanical traps, Elves would plant them. Require a seed, and an amount of time before the trap becomes mature. Some of these could be based off of carnivorous plants (sticky traps like Drosera, snap traps like Dionaea muscipula, or pit-fall traps like Nepenthes, Sarracenia, etc.)

Also, what about poisons? A wooden spear might not be the greatest weapon, but if it could be poisoned for use against biologicals?
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DerMeister

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2019, 10:16:21 pm »

Have you seen http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143563.0 or http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=160610.0 ?

The ideas at the time were a mix of DF elves; irish/british folklore with elven courts; LotR/Warhammer high elves; and ent/plant loving sylvan/wood elves.
You not understand DF lore.
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Meph

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2019, 01:07:57 am »

Have you seen http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143563.0 or http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=160610.0 ?

The ideas at the time were a mix of DF elves; irish/british folklore with elven courts; LotR/Warhammer high elves; and ent/plant loving sylvan/wood elves.
You not understand DF lore.
Only making the most popular mod, the biggest tileset and working on the official Steam/Itch release, but hey, I don't understand DF. Obviously. (?)

It's not like I didn't just name all the different sources that influence the mod design decisions. I don't know if it's the the language barrier, but at some point you might need to have a look at your behaviour. :/ I just don't understand the motivation behind half of your posts in this forum. They are so... unhelpful and unmotivating for other modders. Imagine you are interested and genuinely want to create something yourself, improve and add to a game you love... then you go to the modding forum to discuss and search help, only to meet someone that tells you "your opinion is wrong". This is not what this community should be.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 01:16:57 am by Meph »
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DerMeister

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2019, 02:11:59 am »

Have you seen http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143563.0 or http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=160610.0 ?

The ideas at the time were a mix of DF elves; irish/british folklore with elven courts; LotR/Warhammer high elves; and ent/plant loving sylvan/wood elves.
You not understand DF lore.
Only making the most popular mod, the biggest tileset and working on the official Steam/Itch release, but hey, I don't understand DF. Obviously. (?)

It's not like I didn't just name all the different sources that influence the mod design decisions. I don't know if it's the the language barrier, but at some point you might need to have a look at your behaviour. :/ I just don't understand the motivation behind half of your posts in this forum. They are so... unhelpful and unmotivating for other modders. Imagine you are interested and genuinely want to create something yourself, improve and add to a game you love... then you go to the modding forum to discuss and search help, only to meet someone that tells you "your opinion is wrong". This is not what this community should be.
Can millions of flyes be wrong? You can make hundred of tilesets, but real players prefer to use standart ASCII. You can work with steames and itches, but you not understand this game lore.

Modders can make good mods or bad mods. You want more good mods or more bad mods? If modder understand "Yeah, I made bad mod", he/she/it can work better for next mod. But if we will not say "I think, this mod is bad", modder will not understand. And will make more bad mods. I say more than "this mod is bad". I say why this mod is bad and how make this mod better. Are you understand me right? I may be unpolite sometimes, but I am not a liar. 
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Meph

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2019, 02:27:38 am »

An opinion can't be wrong, by definition. A mod is not bad, just because it doesn't fit the lore. It doesn't have to, it's a personal mod. It's like saying a poem or painting is wrong.

I would agree with you if you were talking about the mechanics behind it. If there is unclean code, bugs, crashes, etc. Bad craftsmanship. That can be criticised and fixed, making the mod a better product. But saying a mod is bad because it's interpretation or idea of content differs from yours is just... so wrong on so many levels.

Quote
You can make hundred of tilesets, but real players prefer to use standart ASCII.
This is a prime example. There aren't any "real" players of anything. Or "real" fans, or "real" men, etc. The entire concept of something or something being more "real" is juvenile.

If LargeSnail wants to make tiny elves with red pointy hats, producing toys in winter with a unique demon-ruler called Santa Claus, it's perfectly in his right to do so, and can be a good, well-written mod with entertainment value that players like. Regardless of DF lore, especially if you consider the total conversion mods people made, anything from LotR, Fallout, Zombie Apocalypse and more. Or the creature packs Zm5 churns out, with all kinds of cross-over creatures from other franchiches.

PS: Sorry @LargeSnail for the slight derail.
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DerMeister

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2019, 03:42:10 am »

An opinion can't be wrong, by definition. A mod is not bad, just because it doesn't fit the lore. It doesn't have to, it's a personal mod. It's like saying a poem or painting is wrong.

I would agree with you if you were talking about the mechanics behind it. If there is unclean code, bugs, crashes, etc. Bad craftsmanship. That can be criticised and fixed, making the mod a better product. But saying a mod is bad because it's interpretation or idea of content differs from yours is just... so wrong on so many levels.

Quote
You can make hundred of tilesets, but real players prefer to use standart ASCII.
This is a prime example. There aren't any "real" players of anything. Or "real" fans, or "real" men, etc. The entire concept of something or something being more "real" is juvenile.

If LargeSnail wants to make tiny elves with red pointy hats, producing toys in winter with a unique demon-ruler called Santa Claus, it's perfectly in his right to do so, and can be a good, well-written mod with entertainment value that players like. Regardless of DF lore, especially if you consider the total conversion mods people made, anything from LotR, Fallout, Zombie Apocalypse and more. Or the creature packs Zm5 churns out, with all kinds of cross-over creatures from other franchiches.

PS: Sorry @LargeSnail for the slight derail.
I not criticize conversions. But if you position your mod as serious (not just for lulz) and in DF lore, you must make this true. If you make mod without DF lore, you must told about this. As example, your "masterwork" is more LoTR and DnD than DF.

You think "opinion cant't be wrong", but I know - it can be bad. Absurd. Irrational. Other words, that you can understand.

I just try to make mods around better. Or I must download mods, rework some things and upload as new mods?
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Superdorf

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Re: [WIP] Elven Forest - Please share ideas and opinions
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2019, 03:58:29 am »

I think... I would like to understand better this notion of "DF lore".

Is the lore of Dwarf Fortress defined by the vision of Tarn Adams-- Toady One? Or is it something apart, something you've constructed of your own accord? If Toady were to add something to the game that doesn't fit your existing preconceptions of "DF lore"-- more magic, say-- would you condemn that new addition as "bad"-- reject it as "not DF lore"? Or would you change your preconceptions to fit the new material?

What do you think a "DF lore" mod should aim to do?

Finally: at what point would you say the OP-- to paraphrase-- "positioned his mod in DF lore"?

(Do we want to move this debate to another thread? This one was supposed to be about elves...)
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