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Author Topic: *We need your help with game ending stress*  (Read 102490 times)

Riemann

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Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« Reply #270 on: February 13, 2020, 02:18:51 pm »

I really do not think that there is no connection between unmet needs / distraction and stress.

The investigation by Loci is interesting:
Far too many people are conflating needs with stress. Needs are a separate system, primarily resulting in distraction, not stress. Yes, difficult and impossible needs are annoying; yes, unmet needs add a handful of minor bad thoughts; but needs are quite unlikely to be a source of "game ending stress".

To illustrate that point, I modded dwarves with [NO_EAT][NO_DRINK][NO_SLEEP], disabled weather, invaders, and immigration, and removed the active season (and clothing) tokens from the mountain entity. I then embarked with sets of leather armor, assigned uniforms, isolated each dwarf in a one tile area, and let the game run for 10 years. Despite *actively not meeting* all of their needs, not a single dwarf complained about stress, threw a tantrum, or went insane. This is a worst case scenario; even a dabbling overseer can be expected to satisfy some of their dwarves' needs by, say, brewing alcohol and assigning work, so "real game" stress from neglected needs would accumulate even slower than in this test. Additionally, the moderate stress from unmet needs could presumably be offset by positive thoughts the dwarves experienced. If you want to see some heavily-distracted-but-sane dwarves, you can download my test embark or recreate the setup from the description above.

But there are too many possible explanations of the result due to the mods needed to run the test. We just don't know what side effects may have been disabled due to all the codepaths that were cut off.

I will try to do some more digging into my recent late game fort ( http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=175583.0 ) with dwarf therapist. See if I just had a lot of internal-ragers. But the correlation between multiple stacked different kinds of distraction and stress was just too big to ignore.

And really, if we are talking about the actual point of this thread ( "We have been going through some extensive testing to find the biggest problems for new (and old!) players that make them give up in frustration." ) then the needs system and distraction is absolutely one of those things.

In all of the UI the unmet needs look bad. Players will want to "fix" the problems their dwarves are having. That kind of empathy is what makes DF such a good game. And right now that is impossible or requires tedious, game breaking micro.

All of the stuff in worldgen and adventure mode is really interesting to read about on the dev blog. No question about that. But worldgen and adventure mode could be in the same state they were literally 10 years ago and it wouldn't impact the actual gameplay experience of Dwarf Fortress hardly at all. The broken needs system and stress problems actually do make a huge impact on gameplay.
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Symmetry

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Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« Reply #271 on: February 13, 2020, 02:55:00 pm »

It's confusing because many "haggard" dwarves will have no bad thoughts in the top block except unmet needs.
I don't doubt Loci's result but it just raises more questions than it answers to me.
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Hyndis

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Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« Reply #272 on: February 13, 2020, 08:36:46 pm »

It's confusing because many "haggard" dwarves will have no bad thoughts in the top block except unmet needs.


I see the same behavior all the time. A wall of positive, happy thoughts and yet the dwarf is still haggard. There does not appear to be any way to reduce stress no matter how charmed of a life the dwarf lives. All the luxuries in the world, every need met, and still stress climbs.

The lack of control is whats frustrating. I understand if I screw up and doom everyone its my own fault. Flooding the dining room with pressurized water from an ocean is entirely my own fault. This doesn't cause me any frustration because cause and effect are linked.

Stress frustrates me because cause and effect are not linked. I have no idea what causes stress and I have no ability to reduce stress. I have zero control about this, yet I'm punished for it anyways. This isn't fun gameplay.

I'm not asking for a magic de-stress button (thought DFHack has one), I just want a clear path to calm dwarves and remove stress. I wish the game told me what to do so that I can do it. Does the stressed dwarf demand a zoo with a hippo and a parrot as exhibits? I can work with that! Just give me a path to fix the problem.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 08:38:32 pm by Hyndis »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« Reply #273 on: February 14, 2020, 05:56:26 am »

It's confusing because many "haggard" dwarves will have no bad thoughts in the top block except unmet needs.


I see the same behavior all the time. A wall of positive, happy thoughts and yet the dwarf is still haggard. There does not appear to be any way to reduce stress no matter how charmed of a life the dwarf lives. All the luxuries in the world, every need met, and still stress climbs.

The lack of control is whats frustrating. I understand if I screw up and doom everyone its my own fault. Flooding the dining room with pressurized water from an ocean is entirely my own fault. This doesn't cause me any frustration because cause and effect are linked.
[snip]

I'm not asking for a magic de-stress button (thought DFHack has one), I just want a clear path to calm dwarves and remove stress. I wish the game told me what to do so that I can do it. Does the stressed dwarf demand a zoo with a hippo and a parrot as exhibits? I can work with that! Just give me a path to fix the problem.

Saying that, that's exactly what's supposed to happen though,  least in signficiantly earlier versions before the tavern arc, the highly interesting statue gardens, zoos and pieces as popular party venues cleared schedules for some chin-wagging and revellry, but alone being put into locations and working 24/7 isn't really as stimulating as a entirely selfishly relaxing activity for knocking off stress.
  • I won't knock priests and mayor/manager's ability to console dwarves having a difficult time, you can definitely lower the limits to something more manageable.
Closest thing i've had is when dwarves want particularly nowhere to go, maybe because locations are overcrowded they'll go back to their private holdings and start injesting throughts of pride over their bed and other furniture. 'Treasure Rooms' intiatives are something to try, even though they don't acknowledge the statue garden or zoo amongst their posessions for private use, even though only they, thier spouse and children can freely path to it.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 05:58:12 am by FantasticDorf »
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UncleSporky

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Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« Reply #274 on: March 06, 2020, 10:52:07 pm »

I learned so much while reading this thread...and in fact it's now making me lose a lot of motivation to keep playing my current fortress, if this is what I have to look forward to.  :(

I play the game in rare spurts and I think stress wasn't fully implemented last time I played.  Because I like to use the Lazy Newb Pack and also like playing on the most stable releases of things, I'm playing on the 2018 version, without any tweaks that may have happened to stress in Villains.  I realize that's less helpful for feedback but I felt compelled to post my thoughts anyway.

Early on I had most dwarves generally happy, as I usually was able to do in previous versions...though they weren't becoming ecstatic as they usually did.  And I had one particular dwarf, who practically nothing had ever happened to, who was just miserable.  Even as someone who uses the wiki quite a bit, I had no idea what was wrong with this dwarf or how to fix them.  Their thoughts were full of "admired own fine bed," "slept in a palatial bedroom," "were satisfied at work recently."  It really didn't indicate what the problem might be.  And they started tantruming, and continuously "conduct meeting," which I learned was an attempt to scream at the management.  I figured this particular dwarf's traits must've been a perfect storm of badness, so I let them starve in a locked room.  (Old habits die hard...forgot you could exile.)

Except after reading this thread, I've looked through some other dwarves' personalities, and they're all getting on that same road.  Personality changed for the worse after getting caught in the rain once several years ago.

Someone else started dipping down into the yellow, again for essentially no visible reason at all in a fort full of wonders and peace and good food.  This time it was a longstanding skilled dwarf I was kind of attached to and didn't want to lose.  I tried many things to fix their stress but it didn't seem like anything could really reduce it.  I locked them in a room with the expedition leader in an attempt to force them to yell at each other for a while, but they both just stood there with no job.  Didn't know what to do.  I ended up targeting the dwarf and typing remove-stress into DFHack, but even so I regret it.  They immediately shot up into the ecstatic range, and are essentially a drooling lobotomized happy dwarf.  It felt so artificial.

But reading this thread, it sounds like that's the only recourse.  Gotta remove-stress -all, or edit the raws to reduce/remove the effects of stress, or do both.  But I really don't want to have to do that.  I already customize the game in a few ways to my liking, such as limiting to 50 dwarves at the moment, but this just feels so cheaty, and not what's intended, and certainly damaging to the individuality of the dwarves as characters.  But on the other hand, I don't want to have to deal with dwarves losing their mind all the time for no good reason; no good reason from my point of view of course, I personally don't think being caught in the rain once is cause to become a bundle of nerves ready to explode at any moment.  That may be how dwarves are, but if that's going to be the case moving forward, then the game is going somewhere that I can't follow.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 10:56:12 pm by UncleSporky »
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« Reply #275 on: March 06, 2020, 10:59:35 pm »

Um....you know that rain causing too much stress is a BUG right? Not working as intended. The game isn't "moving in that direction". It has stress issues which need to be fixed exactly as Toady said not a week ago:

Toady (talking about this thread)
Quote
Yeah, the thread has been great.  We have about twenty angles to work with there, and some of them are straightforward enough that they should come up in the parallel releases rather than with the Steam/itch release.  I haven't run any numeric tests yet, so I'm not going to pin it on anything, but between siege bodies and rain and food and cave adaptation etc. there is a lot to check and change.  The needs discourse is fascinating since it doesn't seem(?) to be a numeric stress problem, but it is a presentation problem, so we'll still need to address it.  The changes made to friendship forming and vulnerable dwarves in the recent 47s is just the start.
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Putnam

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Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« Reply #276 on: March 06, 2020, 11:29:49 pm »

That may be how dwarves are, but if that's going to be the case moving forward, then the game is going somewhere that I can't follow.

How is this thread, made by one of the games' creators specifically because the stress and personality changes are a problem, and indicator that they don't want to change it?

madpathmoth

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Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« Reply #277 on: March 07, 2020, 12:18:44 am »

I'm a new player, and dwarf stress spirals are the biggest thing keeping me from playing Fortress Mode.  It feels awful to try and get started; from the moment I see my dwarves around their wagon I feel like I now have a vague but very real timer on how fast i have to get EVERYTHING done before my dwarves start becoming miserable due to things I can't control.

Rather than enjoy the game, if I embark I expect to have to spend a couple hours frantically trying to make sure I know EVERYTHING about Fortress mode so that I waste as little time as possible immediately doing everything I can do avoid stress, which I just simply cannot do.  Even if nothing "bad" is happening, any random minor cause of stress will begin to pile up from the very first second while it feels like the few painfully obscure ways to reduce stress (a "mist-generator"? are you kidding me?) require so much micro-management while literally stress just pops up everywhere at all times.

Basically Fort Mode feels like if you inherited someone's farm, and then from the moment you got there, they told you that you had to provide for and take care of their seven children while the land is actually on fire somewhere already and you have no way to put it out.  It's not fun.  All of the fun bits of the game would be accessible AFTER I have reached a stable point, but currently this gam